Patrick Volkerding on the Tech Show!

mowestusa · Post by **mowestusa** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:59 pm

Linc wrote: Well, the jist of it is that when using binary packages, it doesn't seem like the dependancies are checked at all, or if they are, there are plenty of missing packages, which breaks things. Also, you would think that if the binary package (or dependancy) was missing that somehow they would check and use the source package, and that doesn't happen either. Futher, to complicate things, there are several recent instances where I have used the source packages and had them not compile or had missing dependancies that couldn't be fulfilled. Not to mention, getting the source packages set up and working takes an hour to unpack the sourcetree after you get it.

I still think that pacman/apt-get is the answer.

That is really interesting, Linc. I just started using netbsd on a test box. I have only used pkgsrc binary packages for the programs that I have installed. I have not installed much with dependances, and all of the programs that I have installed is simply CLI programs. I had no idea that there were such problems. I could see how that would happen because the binary packages that are available for netbsd is very limited. So if you want to install anything interesting you need to install from source.

I really hope that they get the package system worked out, because I want to install this on an alpha server and a test box that I can keep running and running without any issues. I really don't want dependancy issues, that is one reason why I haven't been working with Slackware a lot anymore.

The one thing that I don't like about netbsd is that when it installs a program, it does not tend to install all of the configuration files that are common. So you expect a program to work in a certain way, but it doesn't because the common config files that every Linux distro, including Slackware install for you. Bash and Vim are examples of this.

mowestusa

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:06 pm

Just to start a good classic flamewar, how about asking Pat why he dumped GNOME

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:58 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:Just to start a good classic flamewar, how about asking Pat why he dumped GNOME

The majority prefers KDE, and Slackware is largely a one man show, so I guess he thought maintaining GNOME was unnecessary. If you want GNOME, there's always Freerock or Dropline.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:24 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:Just to start a good classic flamewar, how about asking Pat why he dumped GNOME
The majority prefers KDE, and Slackware is largely a one man show, so I guess he thought maintaining GNOME was unnecessary. If you want GNOME, there's always Freerock or Dropline.

I know, but I always like getting things from the source, don't you?

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:39 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:Just to start a good classic flamewar, how about asking Pat why he dumped GNOME
The majority prefers KDE, and Slackware is largely a one man show, so I guess he thought maintaining GNOME was unnecessary. If you want GNOME, there's always Freerock or Dropline.
I know, but I always like getting things from the source, don't you?

Here ya go - http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/desktop/ ... 1/sources/

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:56 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote: The majority prefers KDE, and Slackware is largely a one man show, so I guess he thought maintaining GNOME was unnecessary. If you want GNOME, there's always Freerock or Dropline.
I know, but I always like getting things from the source, don't you?
Here ya go - http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/desktop/ ... 1/sources/

I was referring to the reason Pat dropped official GNOME support, sure I know he said that know was "buggier" or something, but I'd like more specifics.

Right now I have Fedora Core 5 on my Mac mini GNOME 2.14, it's really nice once you put on the Tango icons, SUSE's Gilouche theming, Banshee, F-Spot and tweaks a few things, plus install Smart and a bunch of stuff from the Livna repository.

snarkout · Post by **snarkout** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:49 am

IIRC he said it was a huge PITA to get working w/o patching, and that he decided that too much effort was being spent on doing so - but that was over a year ago. Huh. That might actually be a good question.

Gomer_X · Post by **Gomer_X** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:41 am

Tsuroerusu wrote:Right now I have Fedora Core 5 on my Mac mini GNOME 2.14, it's really nice once you put on the Tango icons, SUSE's Gilouche theming, Banshee, F-Spot and tweaks a few things, plus install Smart and a bunch of stuff from the Livna repository.

You might want to bear in mind that Fedora has a slightly larger development community than Slackware.

As you point out, you've completed your Fedora system with packages from Livna, which is 3rd party, just like the GNOME support in Slackware.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:59 am

Gomer_X wrote:You might want to bear in mind that Fedora has a slightly larger development community than Slackware.

Of course!
Fedora is really great if you want a really solid GNOME desktop, but KDE in Fedora is just horrible in my opinion. Whereever you go, that ugly-ass BlueCurve theme + icons chases you, and wow I can't run that fast!
Plus if you use the gtk-qt-engine to make GTK apps looks a little more KDEish, all the system configuration tools are unusable because of the color settings.
I am aware of the fact that Red Hat's focus is GTK and GNOME, and that it has always been, but still come on, why make the KDE experience on Fedora so insanely miserable?

Gomer_X wrote:As you point out, you've completed your Fedora system with packages from Livna, which is 3rd party, just like the GNOME support in Slackware.

Nah, it's not GNOME packages that I added from Livna, it's multimedia packages, all the codecs like faac, mad, xvid etc. which you need to add for any distro these days.

Gomer_X · Post by **Gomer_X** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:39 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:I am aware of the fact that Red Hat's focus is GTK and GNOME, and that it has always been, but still come on, why make the KDE experience on Fedora so insanely miserable?

I guess I was talking about GNOME and Slackware. I'm not sure how you got to KDE and Fedora. The point is Fedora has the resources to officially support both. Slackware doesn't

Tsuroerusu wrote:Nah, it's not GNOME packages that I added from Livna, it's multimedia packages, all the codecs like faac, mad, xvid etc. which you need to add for any distro these days.

Again, the point is if you need 3rd party packages on a FEDORA system, why wouldn't people settle for a 3rd party implementation of Gnome on Slackware?

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:09 pm

Gomer_X wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:I am aware of the fact that Red Hat's focus is GTK and GNOME, and that it has always been, but still come on, why make the KDE experience on Fedora so insanely miserable?
I guess I was talking about GNOME and Slackware. I'm not sure how you got to KDE and Fedora. The point is Fedora has the resources to officially support both. Slackware doesn't

Boy did this discussion go weird quickly!

I got into KDE because I find it really weird that with all the resources that Red Hat and Fedora has, they can't even un-uglify KDE on Fedora.

Gomer_X wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:Nah, it's not GNOME packages that I added from Livna, it's multimedia packages, all the codecs like faac, mad, xvid etc. which you need to add for any distro these days.
Again, the point is if you need 3rd party packages on a FEDORA system, why wouldn't people settle for a 3rd party implementation of Gnome on Slackware?

Well, after you have GNOME on Slackware, then you need to go get multimedia packages, I think you are comparing apples to berries, because I didn't need anything extra for GNOME I just needed like faad, faac, mad, x264, libquicktime etc. etc. which I would need for Slackware as well, and if I wanted to run GNOME on Slackware, I need the entire GNOME desktop.

For me personally, Slackware is just too much work, sure it may run forever once you have it set up and all that, but as Dann will tell you, try installing stuff like Banshee or F-Spot which requires Mono, and for .exe files to be set as executeable files. etc. etc.
That can really be a bitch.

I like a machine that can just run forever, but I also like to try out new apps, especially new KDE apps. For example when Amarok 1.4.0 came out, it added some new dependencies on ruby, because you can now use Ruby to write scripts for Amarok, which is cool, but I'd hate to be chasing dependencies around manually to figure out why a script isn't working or something.

Slackware, I'm sure, is really good for a server, and I have tried running it for that, and that went pretty well, even as my first try.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:38 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:For me personally, Slackware is just too much work, sure it may run forever once you have it set up and all that, but as Dann will tell you, try installing stuff like Banshee or F-Spot which requires Mono, and for .exe files to be set as executeable files. etc. etc.
That can really be a bitch.

I like a machine that can just run forever, but I also like to try out new apps, especially new KDE apps. For example when Amarok 1.4.0 came out, it added some new dependencies on ruby, because you can now use Ruby to write scripts for Amarok, which is cool, but I'd hate to be chasing dependencies around manually to figure out why a script isn't working or something.

Slackware, I'm sure, is really good for a server, and I have tried running it for that, and that went pretty well, even as my first try.

It sounds like you've never even given Slackware a chance. Most people that complain about Slackware's package management tools have never even tried to use them. In the past couple months, the only time I've run into any sort of dependency issues was when I compiled MPlayer. Of course, I simply went to LinuxPackages.net and grabbed whatever packages I needed. For the the most part, I'm of the opinion that dependency checking is more of an encumbrance than anything else.

Chess · Post by **Chess** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:43 pm

Getting back to the topic of questions to ask Pat, here are some more:

* How is he feeling? Has he fully recovered from the illness he had a few years ago?

* Based on the current changelog, it seems that udev has been a particularly nasty issue over the past year and a half. I'd like to get his opinions on udev (I think he hates it) and why udev is/is not a good thing.

* Most importantly (to me, at least, haha) - how many Grateful Dead shows did he go to before Jerry died? (I'm a huge Deadhead and so is Patrick so I need to know these things).

snarkout · Post by **snarkout** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:00 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:For the the most part, I'm of the opinion that dependency checking is more of an encumbrance than anything else.

Done poorly, I'd agree. Done well, it's magical.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:10 pm

Snarkout wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:For the the most part, I'm of the opinion that dependency checking is more of an encumbrance than anything else.
Done poorly, I'd agree. Done well, it's magical.

That's somewhat true, but even apt on Debian can be headache inducing at times.