Common command line uses for GUI apps

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:01 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote: Dude, Linux will never be like Windows come on, what are you BSing about?

I'm not trying to BS anyone, it's just my opinion. To me, education is more valuable than "dumb" desktops and applications. If I wanted those, I'd have stuck with Microsoft.

If you only market to stupid people, you'll only get stupid customers.

CptnObvious999 · Post by **CptnObvious999** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:19 pm

I would have to agree with Tsuroerusu, what linux needs a lot is promotion. I see (stupid) Windows commercials all the time but because Linux is free theres no one company promoting it so it has had to go by word of mouth. Sure that helps but if we at least get the name out there maybe we will get more people to use it. There are a bunch of companies that make money off of Linux however they don't make near what M$ does and if they did put out a commercial it would be for their distro not Linux itself. There are a few things wronge with Linux but if you want it completely noobie friendly you will have to sacrifice some of the advanced functionality which I don't think most opensource developers are willing to do since they are power users. We need to make distros for absolute noobies. We have already started to do this with Slackware and Gentoo for the heavy power users to Debian and some other noobie focused distros. We really just need to have more unification for the noobie distros so you can have one control panel. One way to set up the internet with a GUI etc.

NOTE: I am not saying you are a noobie if you use Debian, its just the target audience for it is more noobie than something like Gentoo.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:57 pm

CptnObvious999 wrote:I would have to agree with Tsuroerusu, what linux needs a lot is promotion.

Yes, I agree with that. The only place Linux is lacking (compared to MS and Mac) is in marketing.

CptnObvious999 wrote:We really just need to have more unification for the noobie distros so you can have one control panel. One way to set up the internet with a GUI etc.

You have to be careful with this train of thought... as unification usually means less choice.

Who decides who has the right model? Will Tsuroerusu give up YaST if the community decides that Ubuntu's model is better? Should he be forced to stop promoting YaST if he disagrees, as the community has decided that Ubuntu's model is better for "noobies"?

Should Ubuntu be granted the monopoly of the "noobie" distro over SUSE or Mandriva or (insert your fav. distro here) just because a committee decided so?

I really can't see it happening both ways. I'm still going to advocate education over unification.

CptnObvious999 · Post by **CptnObvious999** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:05 pm

Judland wrote:
CptnObvious999 wrote:I would have to agree with Tsuroerusu, what linux needs a lot is promotion.
Yes, I agree with that. The only place Linux is lacking (compared to MS and Mac) is in marketing.

CptnObvious999 wrote:We really just need to have more unification for the noobie distros so you can have one control panel. One way to set up the internet with a GUI etc.
You have to be careful with this train of thought... as unification usually means less choice.

Who decides who has the right model? Will Tsuroerusu give up YaST if the community decides that Ubuntu's model is better? Should he be forced to stop promoting YaST if he disagrees, as the community has decided that Ubuntu's model is to be used?

Should Ubuntu be granted the monopoly of the "noobie" distro over SUSE or Mandriva or (insert your fav. distro here) just because a committee decided so?

I really can't see it happening both ways. I still going to advocate education over unification.

Noobies don't really care about choice to be blunt. They *will not* switch to Linux because its about choice. They just want it to work. I don't know how it would be decided which is best Im simply saying it should be done. I don't know how that could be solved. Maybe the next KDE will have more GUI utils integrated to do more things so we don't need to rely on Distro tools. Im not saying we need to give up choice I'm saying would could have 2 basic camps of linux, noobies and everyone else.

NOTE: The CLI is mostly unified on all distros which makes CLI as needed as the GUI which is what this thread was originally about

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:57 pm

Judland wrote:Will Tsuroerusu give up YaST if the community decides that Ubuntu's model is better?

HELL NO!

I love YaST, it's great because it's very flexible, if I could program I could write my own module for it so I could have a built-in wireless manager or all kinds of good stuff.

Judland wrote:Should he be forced to stop promoting YaST if he disagrees, as the community has decided that Ubuntu's model is better for "noobies"?

HELL NO!

I'm hooked on SUSE Linux, I love this distro and I believe it and Mandriva is the two most userfriendly distributions the open source world has to offer.
On a danish Linux forum I just scored a few old boxed Linux distros for free: SUSE Linux 9.1 Personal (Two CDs) and Mandrakelinux 10.1 PowerPack (Six CDs)
I tell ya guys, these boxed versions look damn sweet, and the manuals that's included are very very good, hell Mandrake threw in two thick ones!

Judland wrote:Should Ubuntu be granted the monopoly of the "noobie" distro over SUSE or Mandriva or (insert your fav. distro here) just because a committee decided so?

HELL NO!

I hate monopolies in the first place, and I find it a little iratating/ignorant that Ubuntu, a 1½ year old distro, just comes in and claims to be the best over SUSE, 11 year old, and Mandriva, 6½ year old, which has been active for many years now.

Judland wrote:I really can't see it happening both ways. I'm still going to advocate education over unification.

Yeah, I don't want a single control panel or some shit like that, I love SUSE's YaST for a bunch of reasons and Mandriva's DrakConf for other reasons, hell I even like Red Hat's limited set of management tools for other reaons!

CptnObvious999 wrote:Noobies don't really care about choice to be blunt. They *will not* switch to Linux because its about choice. They just want it to work.

When Microsoft tries to force them to upgrade to Vista by ending updates and critical fixes and shit like that, I bet ya a lot of users will just refuse to upgrade because their current stuff works, and then when the thing gets trashed by spyware I think they'll start to say "I want choice about 'dis shit!!".

CptnObvious999 wrote:I don't know how it would be decided which is best Im simply saying it should be done. I don't know how that could be solved. Maybe the next KDE will have more GUI utils integrated to do more things so we don't need to rely on Distro tools.

I seriously doubt that, and since almost every distro now days are ditching KDE I guess it won't really matter!

CptnObvious999 wrote:Im not saying we need to give up choice I'm saying would could have 2 basic camps of linux, noobies and everyone else.

I just think we need some sort of technology that people can link their apps against and then if the application is run under KDE it will be rendered with Qt and intergrate into KDE, and if run under GNOME it will be rendered with GTK and intergrated into GNOME.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:06 pm

CptnObvious999 wrote:I don't know how it would be decided which is best Im simply saying it should be done.

They did. It's called Microsoft Windows.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:14 pm

Judland wrote:
CptnObvious999 wrote:I don't know how it would be decided which is best Im simply saying it should be done.
They did. It's called Microsoft Windows.

"DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!"
- Steven Anthony Ballmer

CptnObvious999 · Post by **CptnObvious999** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:33 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:
CptnObvious999 wrote:I don't know how it would be decided which is best Im simply saying it should be done. I don't know how that could be solved. Maybe the next KDE will have more GUI utils integrated to do more things so we don't need to rely on Distro tools.
I seriously doubt that, and since almost every distro now days are ditching KDE I guess it won't really matter!

Almost every distro I know uses KDE by default. Didn't you listen to Torvalds?

KDE is the best DE for noobies (and everyone else too

)

As far as the choice thing goes there will still be choice. There will always be lots of distros to choose from even if some have the same GUIs. There are somethings that IMHO would be better to have one standard, mostly sound. Every once in a while programs want to control the sound and lock others out and it's just a mess. Specifically some video players, kde apps, and games don't play nice. This isn't to say other ones can't exist but there should be one that is most popular or some way to unite them. Arts works sometimes at that but not others. This has led to bad sound in Linux that Im sorry to say but was not a problem on Windows 95.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:44 pm

CptnObvious999 wrote:Almost every distro I know uses KDE by default. Didn't you listen to Torvalds? KDE is the best DE for noobies (and everyone else too )

My statement was also ment as a joke! I agree with Linus, KDE is the best, and even if you fire up KDE apps, Konqueror doesn't sit in the background, which freaking Nautilus, which is why I refuse to install that thing on my machine agaiN!

CptnObvious999 wrote:As far as the choice thing goes there will still be choice. There will always be lots of distros to choose from even if some have the same GUIs. There are somethings that IMHO would be better to have one standard, mostly sound. Every once in a while programs want to control the sound and lock others out and it's just a mess. Specifically some video players, kde apps, and games don't play nice. This isn't to say other ones can't exist but there should be one that is most popular or some way to unite them. Arts works sometimes at that but not others. This has led to bad sound in Linux that Im sorry to say but was not a problem on Windows 95.

I never actually never have problems with sound, the solution for this sound issue is to get a soundcard that does mixing in hardware like a 10 dollar Soundblaster 5.1 Live, works great makes life eaisier

I once wanted to test my sound configuration so I made two commandline audio players output directly to ALSA at the same time along with four GUI sound players which also outputted directly to ALSA and then I played UT2004, everything played at the same time, no hickups or shit like that, worked great, another reason why I recommend Mandriva is that they have tuned their ALSA player to enable multiplexing by default so this sound issue is not a problem.

Don't worry about aRts, the KDE developers will be throwing it out in KDE 4.x, and create a more modern sound layer.

CptnObvious999 · Post by **CptnObvious999** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:47 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:Don't worry about aRts, the KDE developers will be throwing it out in KDE 4.x, and create a more modern sound layer.

Good, Now Im even more excited for KDE 4!

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:57 pm

CptnObvious999 wrote:Good, Now Im even more excited for KDE 4!

Hehe yeah, what I'm looking forward to the most is actually the new visuals and icons, Oxygen, but also Plasma and the new applet technology to make the desktop be useful for more stuff than just icons and a wallpaper