thelinuxlink.net

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050809/ap_ ... MlJVRPUCUl

These kids are being changed with felonies. Pretty serious. Dan, have you had any baby crackers in your school district?

I think this all comes back to the idea that Linc and I seem to share...

Computer users (and obviously in this case, ADMINISTRATORS) need to have proper computer training/certification before working on non-personal systems. And I don't mean MCSE. That's not good enough. We have MCSEs working for us and they don't exhibit very good computing skills either.

I mean using the school's street address as the administration password? Come on. That's just down-right stupid.

"We'd be happy to have you working for us. Can I see your desktop driver's license please?"

Don't get me wrong, I thing the kids should be punished but the School's IT Administrators should be punished too.

School districts often don't secure their computer networks well and students need to be better taught right from wrong on such networks, said Internet expert Jean Armour Polly, author of "Net-mom's Internet Kids & Family Yellow Pages."

So instead of fixing the security issues we just hope the kids will do the right thing. THEY ARE KIDS! I have yet to meet a kid that has never made a wrong or bad decision. Hell, I made several growing up. That is part of growing up and learning.

The question needs to be asked by the School administration. What is worse. Getting hacked, or allowing yourself to be open to get hacked.

Ha, All Microsoft Windows users need to ask themselves almost that very same question.

I think it is rediculas how the school is charging the students with criminal offences. Does looking at porn really make you a criminal? even if you are underage. I understand that schools don't have a lot of money but to charge them as criminals because you left the door open is crazy.

Is what the kids did wrong? Yes.
Is it equal to murder, kidnapping? NO
Can you ever secure a laptop? NO

To me this school had no business giving out laptops and having everyone sign an agreement. I as a parent would of never signed it. This isn't a fricken paranoid corporation. This is school where our kids are suppose to feel safe and feel free to explore and gain knowledge. How can they when they have to sign lawyer drawn up documents. Man if I was a parent at that school I would of told them to shove the laptop and the agreement where the sun doesn't shine.
And if they would of made it mandatory - I would of seeked a lawyer and have the school district pay all the expenses.

I am sick of these schools thinking they are so cool in giving students/teachers computers. I say take them away. All we are doing is teaching them how to fill out forms in Word. What good is that going to do them? How about having some classes about how to build/program them and then maybe they would respect all the work that goes into creating a computer. We are creating nothing but a nation of fricken lawyers, secretaries, and corrupt politicians. Isn't it time we start creating some engineers, artists, and sculpturers. We have to let our minds go people and start getting imaginative. Our existence depends on it. We can't become a bunch of office (microsoft office too) drones.

Teach the kids how stuff works and to let their minds go and be creative and imaginative. Make them want to learn and gain knowledge - otherwise I wish the big comet would just come down now and finish us all.

Jsusanka,
Great first post!
Welcome to the forum.

jsusanka wrote:Is what the kids did wrong? Yes.
Is it equal to murder, kidnapping? NO
Can you ever secure a laptop? NO

To me this school had no business giving out laptops and having everyone sign an agreement. I as a parent would of never signed it. This isn't a fricken paranoid corporation. This is school where our kids are suppose to feel safe and feel free to explore and gain knowledge. How can they when they have to sign lawyer drawn up documents. Man if I was a parent at that school I would of told them to shove the laptop and the agreement where the sun doesn't shine.
And if they would of made it mandatory - I would of seeked a lawyer and have the school district pay all the expenses.

I am sick of these schools thinking they are so cool in giving students/teachers computers. I say take them away. All we are doing is teaching them how to fill out forms in Word. What good is that going to do them? How about having some classes about how to build/program them and then maybe they would respect all the work that goes into creating a computer. We are creating nothing but a nation of fricken lawyers, secretaries, and corrupt politicians. Isn't it time we start creating some engineers, artists, and sculpturers. We have to let our minds go people and start getting imaginative. Our existence depends on it. We can't become a bunch of office (microsoft office too) drones.

Teach the kids how stuff works and to let their minds go and be creative and imaginative. Make them want to learn and gain knowledge - otherwise I wish the big comet would just come down now and finish us all.

This is such a troll, but I guess I'll field it anyway. Taking computers out of the schools would be a horrible idea. I'm guessing you didn't learn how to type in elementary or high school. Typing is an incredibly valuable skill to have in today's world, where almost every educated occupation requires the use of a computer. Additionally, many programmers got started messing around with simple programs in high school; that's how I got my start.

I'm not sure that giving every student a laptop is a good idea, and I certainly don't condone what these kids did, but taking computer access away from students is just idiotic.

"This is such a troll, but I guess I'll field it anyway. Taking computers out of the schools would be a horrible idea. I'm guessing you didn't learn how to type in elementary or high school. Typing is an incredibly valuable skill to have in today's world, where almost every educated occupation requires the use of a computer. Additionally, many programmers got started messing around with simple programs in high school; that's how I got my start. "

I don't see how it was a troll - but I will field this one anyway.

So you want to buy a 1000+ computer so 1st graders can learn to type?
I don't think they can work till they are 16 last I checked.

And yes I learned to type in high school on a typewriter and I got into programming in college. But I would of gotten into programming into college anyway whether I learned to type or not in high school.

Learning how to type has nothing to do with programming. Your mathematical skill and analytical ability is what has to do with programming. I know I would rather have my daughter take calculus or physics in high school than I would a typing class or computer class for that matter.

Now that I saw your feedback I think I have changed my mind in that I wasn't sure if elemetary/high schools should have computers - but now seeing your feedback I know they shouldn't.

One last thing is if you would of done any programming on these laptops looks like you would of had been brought up on charges.

I learned how to program on my own while I was in middleschool. I played some educational games at my old elementary school's computer games but thats about it. Personally I think kids should be tought how to use computers as school is supposed to prepare you for the 'real world' and chances are you will use a computer when you get a job. If you look at someone like my mom who got no computer training when she was in school, it makes sense to train them to use computers because they don't know how use computers very good. I support your opinion jsusanka but I disagree with it.

Alright, let me take this point by point:

So you want to buy a 1000+ computer so 1st graders can learn to type? I don't think they can work till they are 16 last I checked.

I don't know what schoolhouse you attended, but the elementary school I went to comprised 1st through 6th grade. I was taught to type in 5th grade, while you were probably still learning the nuances of the ABCs.

Furthermore, did I claim that every child should be given a computer? Nope. I stated that you shouldn't take every computer out of a school; instead, there should just be computer labs, much like there are now, a fine decision made by people that are apparently smarter than yourself.

And yes I learned to type in high school on a typewriter and I got into programming in college. But I would of gotten into programming into college anyway whether I learned to type or not in high school.

Learning how to type has nothing to do with programming. Your mathematical skill and analytical ability is what has to do with programming. I know I would rather have my daughter take calculus or physics in high school than I would a typing class or computer class for that matter.

Again, I never said that kids should be taught to type at the expense of other classes. It took one semester of 40 minute classes to teach all of my class to type, albeit at different proficiencies. That really isn't too much "wasted" time. Furthermore, why do computers have to be taught separately from the other disciplines? Computers are a tool, and they should be used to help students visualize problems in calculus or physics[1].

Now that I saw your feedback I think I have changed my mind in that I wasn't sure if elemetary/high schools should have computers - but now seeing your feedback I know they shouldn't.

I'm not really sure where your going with this; I had a computer at home as well, which I certainly hope you are providing to your daughter.

One last thing is if you would of done any programming on these laptops looks like you would of had been brought up on charges.

So you believe me to be a potential criminal because my opinion doesn't coincide with yours? <sarcasm>That's an intelligent conclusion.</sarcasm>

Since I am on a roll, we may as well have a little lesson in grammar. Let me provide an example:

Tim: Of you taken out the trash Johnny?
Johnny: I would of, but I was too busy picking my nose.

Instead, it's

Tim: Have you taken out the trash Johnny?
Johnny: I would have, but I was too busy picking my nose.

Just for future reference.

[1] If you really are interested in making yourself more knowledgeable about the subject, I highly recommend How People Learn.

bosshoff wrote:

One last thing is if you would of done any programming on these laptops looks like you would of had been brought up on charges.

So you believe me to be a potential criminal because my opinion doesn't coincide with yours? <sarcasm>That's an intelligent conclusion.</sarcasm>

No, I think that point was that based upon the restrictions set on the laptops that doing any kind of programming would be violating the restrictions. I don't think this was a difference of opinion slated towards you. Nor do I think your original post was trolling.

Pat, of course there have been kids who have tried hacking into our network. But that is all I can say, I am not at liberty to discuss this topic any further with regards to where I work.

One of the points I failed to make, which I hope to rectifty on the next show, is that securing a school network can be extremely difficult compared to other networks. For example, we have had to poke some serious holes in our security software to let applications that are way out of date, but written into the curriculum, run. We could say no to those apps but Curriculum is king and at the end of the day it is all about the students. So if that is how the curriculum was written then we need to make it possible. So when that security hole becomes a liability we need to put out the fire after the fact.

As for providing students with computers; I would venture to guess, particularly for HS students, this will become more of a reality. There are tremendous educational benefits and not to mention that vendors are really pushing this. So those schools that can afford this right now have moved forward. Those schools that have partnered with Apple or IBM and have implemented such a program have become model schools for technology.

While computer labs still exist, they are being phased out, particularly in the lower levels for computers in classrooms and mobile labs. The overall integration goal is not to bring the students to the technology but to bring the technology to the students. An example is with a science class. They could use the laptops in a mobile lab to assist with taking measurements from a probe for a lesson on meteorology; instead of having to move the class to a stationary computer lab outside their work environment.

Providing students with their own laptops is an extension to this. Instead of students having to do research on the web only during study halls and library time, typing up their papers during this time, etc. bring the technology to the student. This also errodes equity with regards to the advantage a student who has a computer at home may have. Now all students would have a computer at home. Theoretically they'd be able to continue with the research and class work at home.

Of course this brings with it a whole host of problems, as can be seen with the Kutztown 13. Problems that are just coming to light in the media and probably will continue to do so for some time.

"Quote:
One last thing is if you would of done any programming on these laptops looks like you would of had been brought up on charges.
So you believe me to be a potential criminal because my opinion doesn't coincide with yours? <sarcasm>That's an intelligent conclusion.</sarcasm> "

no my point is that the kids should be allowed to do whatever they want to do on the computers - like you said they are tools and should be used as such to open their minds to the possibilities.

I will end with this - I did not think I was being a troll in my first post. I am for computers in schools but not if we have to sign drawn up papers. Like I said this isn't a paranoid corporation.

If they are worried about kids getting porn then they have bigger problems then what is actually on the computer.

What gets me pissed of is that all these agreements flying around and parents signing them. It is a bad trend and needs to be stopped. The same with DRM. It is a big brother paranoid syndrome that is getting out of hand and more people should pissed off about it. It is totalitarianism plain and simple. And if you aren't pissed off about it then you need to really sit back and take a full look at the situation.

It is a laptop used as a tool. Were they using to do something illegal - NO. Though they did sign an agreement and that is where the school has total control over them. I would of not have signed it and told them to put it where the sun does not shine plain and simple. They don't make them sign anything for the kids to use a school supplied pencil which could be used to kill someone if one knows how or draw different parts of the anatomy which could be considered pornographic.

This whole situation is just stupid and should of nevered happened starting with the signing of the agreement.

Also I don't really think much of people who correct other's grammers on these forums. Most of the time people are writing in a hurry and really don't have time to proofread. That is obnoxious and self-serving. It's not an essay contest. which by the way I won a few in my time just to be a little self-serving here.

jsusanka wrote:no my point is that the kids should be allowed to do whatever they want to do on the computers - like you said they are tools and should be used as such to open their minds to the possibilities.

Unfortunately time and again a few bad eggs spoil the bunch. Saying students should be allowed to do what they want with these computers is akin to saying they should be able to do what they want with any bit of school property. The school is there to educate students; a computer may be provided to help in this education. That tool is not there for entertainment purposes or for the purposes of conducting illegal activity.

jsusanka wrote: I will end with this - I did not think I was being a troll in my first post. I am for computers in schools but not if we have to sign drawn up papers. Like I said this isn't a paranoid corporation.

What gets me pissed of is that all these agreements flying around and parents signing them. It is a bad trend and needs to be stopped. The same with DRM. It is a big brother paranoid syndrome that is getting out of hand and more people should pissed off about it. It is totalitarianism plain and simple. And if you aren't pissed off about it then you need to really sit back and take a full look at the situation.

Consider that we are talking about computers here and not text books. Not only is it an expensive piece of equipment but it is an extremely versital piece of equipment. Those contracts are there for a reason.

First, the school district must spell out exactly what these "tools" are used for and the restrictions for their use. Without such a contract the school becomes liable for whatever the computers are used for. If a student decides to use a school computer to attempt to crack into a bank network or use it in a phishing scam it makes it more difficult for the school to be held responsible as the student is clearly violating the contract that was signed.

Should little Johnny's parents come home and find Johnny surfing porn or playing the Hot Coffee Mod on GTA SA; they cannot come after the school because again, the student is violating the contract.

So no, those agreements are not just flying around, they are scrutinized for months and agreed upon by committee so that tools like computers can be utilized more often by and be more accessable to students.

In a school district it's not just "Big Brother" looking over your shoulder, it's little Johnny, his parents, his family, their friends, the community, the churches, surrounding bussiness, your own employees and everyone else.

"First, the school district must spell out exactly what these "tools" are used for and the restrictions for their use. Without such a contract the school becomes liable for whatever the computers are used for. If a student decides to use a school computer to attempt to crack into a bank network or use it in a phishing scam it makes it more difficult for the school to be held responsible as the student is clearly violating the contract that was signed."

The school can't be held responsible for something little Johnny does on the computer they supplied him. If that is the case then what about anything the school supplies. Just for an example if the school supplies spray paint say for a project or a float for a parade at a different location and little Johnny goes and spray paints the local sheriff's office or city hall and is caught are they going to come after the school. I think the judge would throw that out. But I know the world is full of lawyers and in America anybody can be sued.

Also, how do you handle the legit kids that say want to actually do scripting/programming or want to put linux on their laptop just to learn. If you say no to these kids then I think the whole purpose of the laptop gets thrown out the window (no pun intended). At least that is just my opinion. These kids should be allowed to do this and have some kind of exception process otherwise the laptops (at least to me) are just being burdens.

But anyway this is really the end for this subject for me and I apologize for being cranky or a troll but when it comes to subjects like this I get passionate because I personally think we are just shoving too much on these kids today and they need time to just to be kids and have fun (non tv and computer game fun). I also hope the teachers do not rely on these computers too much and make the kids do problems manually (i.e. still show work on how they got solutions in math and make them do it manually on tests).

I also want to say I do enjoy your show and look forward to it every week - I have just started listening a few weeks back but I caught all you shows back to the Leo Laporte interview. I think you guys do a great show and keep up the good work.

I fully agree with you jsusanka (except for the part about showing work, I hated that in Math, I could do most of it in my head ) its the lawyers that screw us over. Also the fact that government has always been bad about regulating technology doesn't help either.