thelinuxlink.net

How about below average users?

I sent my parents a brand new PC as an early Christmas gift. Installed Kanotix on it, of course.

So this weekend I get a call from Dad. He tells me that the PC arrived and was ready to set it up.

So I talk him through the exchanging of cables from the old PC to the new one. And we boot up Kanotix.

Now, he's far from the computer-savvy type, as I had to explain to him how a task bar works and how you can minimize windows. Get the picture?

Yet, once we got his cable modem to release the MAC address assigned to it (so Linux could obtain it's own IP address) he was up and running. I remote-desktop connected to his PC and gave him a half hour tour of his new desktop.

Well, he's now surfing the web just as he was before, if not easier. And he loves the idea of not being terrified of the PC being compromised by some computer virus.

So, I say "bah" to those people who say Linux isn't ready for the "average" user. I've got a below average user using it just fine and enjoying every minute of it.

Nicely done Judland!

And I agree with you, Linux is great for average users, because what's the hardest? Learn to use KDE/GNOME/Whatever or remove spyware/viruses from a system or even try to not get it in the first place?

The only thing I think the installers need at this point is to make it 100% seemless to do a dual boot system, I think SUSE is very very close to perfect on this one, just last piece of polish is needed.

I find it very very hard to believe that an average PC user who primarily uses his PC for office stuff and web surfing, can't install a distro like SUSE, if you just read what it asks you instead of just saying "I can't do this" it won't be hard at all to install. It's like saying you can't play video games because you're too old, and that's a big bunch of bollocks!

The main reason most people say Linux is not ready for the desktop is because it is different and they don't realize that different can be better. The only thing I think that is holding back Linux from dominating is promotion. There should be a group of people making a commercial and everyone could donate to get it on the TV. That would be cool.

IME, the main stumbling blocks most people run into are:

#1 - it isn't pre-installed on their Dell Computer
#2 - software they "need" doesn't run on linux.
#3 - poor or complete lack of drivers for certain hardware.
#4 - when things don't "just work" the fixes are often esoteric (in their minds at least).
#5 - software they really *do* need doesn't run on linux.


IME, very few people have trouble learning how to navigate KDE or Gnome to just use apps. In fact, I'd say it's far easier than OS X for many people. Most people I know of who ended up on OSX because Apple sh!t-canned OS9 have 30+ items in their dock because finding "Applications" is a hassle.

How about below average users?

I sent my parents a brand new PC as an early Christmas gift. Installed Kanotix on it, of course.

So this weekend I get a call from Dad. He tells me that the PC arrived and was ready to set it up.

So I talk him through the exchanging of cables from the old PC to the new one. And we boot up Kanotix.

Now, he's far from the computer-savvy type, as I had to explain to him how a task bar works and how you can minimize windows. Get the picture?

Yet, once we got his cable modem to release the MAC address assigned to it (so Linux could obtain it's own IP address) he was up and running. I remote-desktop connected to his PC and gave him a half hour tour of his new desktop.

Well, he's now surfing the web just as he was before, if not easier. And he loves the idea of not being terrified of the PC being compromised by some computer virus.

So, I say "bah" to those people who say Linux isn't ready for the "average" user. I've got a below average user using it just fine and enjoying every minute of it.

Exactly. YOU installed it for him. The average Windows user doesn't know how to install Linux, or even Windows for that matter. Linux will be ready for average users when you can go to any Circuit City, or Best Buy and have a choice between Linux or Windows preinstalled. That's when Linux on the desktop will really take off. The applications, and ease of use are definitely there now, but it's still too hard for mom and pop to get Linux. That's where Apple has such an advantage over Linux. Any dumb Windows user can go and buy an Apple computer with everything configured, and setup for them. They plug it in and it just works.

Wally Balljacker wrote:The average Windows user doesn't know how to install Linux, or even Windows for that matter. Linux will be ready for average users when you can go to any Circuit City, or Best Buy and have a choice between Linux or Windows preinstalled. That's when Linux on the desktop will really take off. The applications, and ease of use are definitely there now, but it's still too hard for mom and pop to get Linux. That's where Apple has such an advantage over Linux. Any dumb Windows user can go and buy an Apple computer with everything configured, and setup for them. They plug it in and it just works.

DING, DING, DING.... We have a winner!

Wally Balljacker wrote:The average Windows user doesn't know how to install Linux, or even Windows for that matter. Linux will be ready for average users when you can go to any Circuit City, or Best Buy and have a choice between Linux or Windows preinstalled. That's when Linux on the desktop will really take off. The applications, and ease of use are definitely there now, but it's still too hard for mom and pop to get Linux. That's where Apple has such an advantage over Linux. Any dumb Windows user can go and buy an Apple computer with everything configured, and setup for them. They plug it in and it just works.

Yeah, but how in the world do get Circuit City or any of the bigger vendors to start selling Linux or taking a chance on Linux? Come on Dell is big enough to oppose Micro$oft and they already sell Red Hat and SUSE on their server products.

The reason I don't think it's too hard for anyone's mum to install Linux (Well it's too WAY too hard to install Debian or Slackware, but SUSE or Mandriva is a piece of cake and I've tested it out on my mum where I said "Install it for yourself" and she did it, and my mum is 54 years old and is a million years aprt from being a computer savy person) is because eventually they have to reinstall their messed up Windows, because who's mum doesn't get spyware? You pop in a restore CD and you navigate through a couple of menus and then you wait a little while and boom done. AND after the installation you gotta install antivirus and even harder to do antispyware software to not get the crab 2 weeks later. With SUSE you pretty much do the same that you do with the Windows restore disc but you don't need to do any of the post-install crab that you do with Windows.
And yes I also agree that it will be much much eaisier for people to get Windows preinstalled, that would make a big difference, but I think we need to start somewhere, if we can convince PC manufactureres that Linux is something people want, they will probably consider start selling it.
One thing I look forward to see is the final hardware requirements for Windows Vista, because from what I've seen so far their seem pretty high, what if Dell said "Hey this OS require too powerful hardware for us to sell PCs for 349 bucks, we're gonna ship Linux!" that would be nice, but unreal right?

Another thing I've been thinking about is that when a new Windows is released the people who don't upgrade will eventually be forced to buy a new PC with that new Windows on it, because Micro$oft will terminate suppotrt for it, they've just done that with Windows 2000.
At least some non-experienced computer users do upgrade their Windows, and I seriously doubt that the move from Windows XP to Vista will be harder than to just get SUSE Linux, and that one you could buy retail like with Linspire, but I would never give Linspire to my mum, if they dont't set up a non-root user by default they don't understand UNIX security, period. That's just my opinion. Think about it, what would prevent spyware from installing itself through Internet Explorer on Windows machines? Non-root accounts by default.

Tsuroerusu wrote:

Wally Balljacker wrote:The average Windows user doesn't know how to install Linux, or even Windows for that matter. Linux will be ready for average users when you can go to any Circuit City, or Best Buy and have a choice between Linux or Windows preinstalled. That's when Linux on the desktop will really take off. The applications, and ease of use are definitely there now, but it's still too hard for mom and pop to get Linux. That's where Apple has such an advantage over Linux. Any dumb Windows user can go and buy an Apple computer with everything configured, and setup for them. They plug it in and it just works.

Yeah, but how in the world do get Circuit City or any of the bigger vendors to start selling Linux or taking a chance on Linux? Come on Dell is big enough to oppose Micro$oft and they already sell Red Hat and SUSE on their server products.

The reason I don't think it's too hard for anyone's mum to install Linux (Well it's too WAY too hard to install Debian or Slackware, but SUSE or Mandriva is a piece of cake and I've tested it out on my mum where I said "Install it for yourself" and she did it, and my mum is 54 years old and is a million years aprt from being a computer savy person) is because eventually they have to reinstall their messed up Windows, because who's mum doesn't get spyware? You pop in a restore CD and you navigate through a couple of menus and then you wait a little while and boom done. AND after the installation you gotta install antivirus and even harder to do antispyware software to not get the crab 2 weeks later. With SUSE you pretty much do the same that you do with the Windows restore disc but you don't need to do any of the post-install crab that you do with Windows.
And yes I also agree that it will be much much eaisier for people to get Windows preinstalled, that would make a big difference, but I think we need to start somewhere, if we can convince PC manufactureres that Linux is something people want, they will probably consider start selling it.
One thing I look forward to see is the final hardware requirements for Windows Vista, because from what I've seen so far their seem pretty high, what if Dell said "Hey this OS require too powerful hardware for us to sell PCs for 349 bucks, we're gonna ship Linux!" that would be nice, but unreal right?

Another thing I've been thinking about is that when a new Windows is released the people who don't upgrade will eventually be forced to buy a new PC with that new Windows on it, because Micro$oft will terminate suppotrt for it, they've just done that with Windows 2000.
At least some non-experienced computer users do upgrade their Windows, and I seriously doubt that the move from Windows XP to Vista will be harder than to just get SUSE Linux, and that one you could buy retail like with Linspire, but I would never give Linspire to my mum, if they dont't set up a non-root user by default they don't understand UNIX security, period. That's just my opinion. Think about it, what would prevent spyware from installing itself through Internet Explorer on Windows machines? Non-root accounts by default.

I don't see Circuit City, or Best Buy selling and advertising Linux PCs anytime soon either, but in reality, that's what it's going to take to have a fair shot at getting Windows off peoples' desktops. Non tech savvy people with non tech savvy friends have no clue that Linux is even out there. If they've even heard of it, they think it's some hacker program that runs on Windows. These people don't know what an "ISO" is, and they certainly don't know how to change their BIOS to boot from a Linux installation CD before Windows. Average Joe user needs Linux preinstalled. Hopefully we'll see it within the next 5 years. Until then, a Mac is the best choice, unless they have a local geek to help them install and learn Linux.

Wally Balljacker wrote:I don't see Circuit City, or Best Buy selling and advertising Linux PCs anytime soon either, but in reality, that's what it's going to take to have a fair shot at getting Windows off peoples' desktops. Non tech savvy people with non tech savvy friends have no clue that Linux is even out there. If they've even heard of it, they think it's some hacker program that runs on Windows. These people don't know what an "ISO" is, and they certainly don't know how to change their BIOS to boot from a Linux installation CD before Windows. Average Joe user needs Linux preinstalled. Hopefully we'll see it within the next 5 years. Until then, a Mac is the best choice, unless they have a local geek to help them install and learn Linux.

Well good luck convincing companies to sell preinstalled Linux machines. I know that Linspire has been making inroads in that area, but I'm just religously against the idea of not setting people up with a non-root user by default, that very same thing makes Windows so insecure.

Obiously Red Hat and Novell don't give a shit about the consumer desktop, so they are certainly not the ones who's gonna push Dell and HP to start preinstalling Linux.

Tsuroerusu wrote:

Wally Balljacker wrote:I don't see Circuit City, or Best Buy selling and advertising Linux PCs anytime soon either, but in reality, that's what it's going to take to have a fair shot at getting Windows off peoples' desktops. Non tech savvy people with non tech savvy friends have no clue that Linux is even out there. If they've even heard of it, they think it's some hacker program that runs on Windows. These people don't know what an "ISO" is, and they certainly don't know how to change their BIOS to boot from a Linux installation CD before Windows. Average Joe user needs Linux preinstalled. Hopefully we'll see it within the next 5 years. Until then, a Mac is the best choice, unless they have a local geek to help them install and learn Linux.

Well good luck convincing companies to sell preinstalled Linux machines. I know that Linspire has been making inroads in that area, but I'm just religously against the idea of not setting people up with a non-root user by default, that very same thing makes Windows so insecure.

Obiously Red Hat and Novell don't give a shat about the consumer desktop, so they are certainly not the ones who's gonna push Dell and HP to start preinstalling Linux.

I totally agree, but that's reality. Part of the reason Apple has such a small market share, compared to Windows is because you can't buy a Mac at regular computer stores. Apple stores are few and far between, and buying a totally new type of computer online is a hard sell to longtime Windows users.

Part of the reason Apple has such a small market share, compared to Windows is because you can't buy a Mac at regular computer stores

Yeah, but a very minor part. The major reason is that Macs don't run all that windows software the consumers already have, and Macs are really fscking expensive. It's almost impossible to convince a person who is Dell's target audience that a $3k machine is what they want. The MacMini is *not* going to be much in the way of a persuader, either.

This is one of the reasons I really look forward to KDE 4.0, if we could have a killer desktop with all kinds of great features I think the PC manufacturers might stop and consider this. Maybe we should not throw so much energy into convinsing Dell and HP to sell Linux machines, maybe we should just put that energy into creating a killer desktop and let the fools convince themselves!

For this purpose I see GNOME as totally obsolete, with the stuff KDE is in the process of doing, and the fact that they've been talking to ATi and NVIDIA sounds like KDE 4.0 will be a sexy killer desktop!

Snarkout wrote:

Part of the reason Apple has such a small market share, compared to Windows is because you can't buy a Mac at regular computer stores

Yeah, but a very minor part. The major reason is that Macs don't run all that windows software the consumers already have, and Macs are really fscking expensive. It's almost impossible to convince a person who is Dell's target audience that a $3k machine is what they want. The MacMini is *not* going to be much in the way of a persuader, either.

That's where the iMac comes in. You plug it in, and it just works. The 17" G5 starts at $1,300. That's not THAT expensive, considering you get a fully working computer with 512mb of RAM, 160GB of storage, a widescreen LCD display and a dual-layer DVD burner. It's true that Windows users don't like to let go of their software, but you can't run Windows software on Linux either. Emulation doesn't count. As of now, Windows emulation doesn't work reliably with enough software.

Wally Balljacker wrote:Linux will be ready for average users when you can go to any Circuit City, or Best Buy and have a choice between Linux or Windows preinstalled. That's when Linux on the desktop will really take off.

I hate to admit it, but I don't think you'll ever see chain retailers selling pre-installed Linux. Why? Well I think it has to do with customer dependency. Retailers need something like Microsoft because Microsoft software doesn't work. And if it doesn't work, customers need to come back to the retailers to buy add-on software to make it work better, or buy the new releases of the same software that still doesn't work.

It's like a drug dealer... get them dependent on you, make sure you sell them something that keeps them coming back for more "fixes" but don't give them the tools to make them self reliant.

Selling Linux boxes... sure, they'd be selling top quality products, but it would be selling customers something that makes them not as dependent on the retailers in order to keep their systems running.

Linux is good for the consumer.... but not very good for the capitalists.

I say screw 'em, but then again, I ain't sheep.

Anyway, the real point to all of this was to prove, once again, the whole "Linux not ready for the average user" comment is pure bullsh*t.

Wally Balljacker wrote:That's where the iMac comes in. You plug it in, and it just works. The 17" G5 starts at $1,300. That's not THAT expensive, considering you get a fully working computer with 512mb of RAM, 160GB of storage, a widescreen LCD display and a dual-layer DVD burner. It's true that Windows users don't like to let go of their software, but you can't run Windows software on Linux either. Emulation doesn't count. As of now, Windows emulation doesn't work reliably with enough software.

That's 3x as much as a Dell for options most computer users don't know or care about. I was raised in an Apple family (my dad was one of the original Mac engineers), and am typing this on a Quicksilver G4. Even when I was a full-on Mac head, I never bought into the "It's the BMW of computers" schtick, and I always thought they were over-priced.

To understand the average PC user, it helps to interface with them regularly. I've been in the ISP industry on some level or another for ~4 years at this point, and have spoken to what I believe is the LCD of computer user more times than I'd care to. None of these people give a rat's ass about "fancy" they just want their browser and email to work, and work w/o any input from them whatsoever. This is my selling point for OS X when I speak to people on this subject -- no malware, and no viruses (obviously, this could change, but I think windows will always be fundamentally less secure), and far, far fewer crashes. I could never recommend a Mac as a good value spec-wise though. Obviously, not having to have your machine cleaned out by a professional every few months carries with it value of its own, but not enough that many people are willing to change their mindset, IME.

Do I believe that OS X is superior to windows? You bet your ass I do. Do I think that apple will ever capture more market share w/o drastically slashing their obscene margins? Hell no.