thelinuxlink.net

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS3369254439.html
"Longhorn is going to face some very tough competition as Microsoft strives to hold off Linux and Solaris on the server front.

Recently, for the first time ever, Microsoft's server shipment numbers surpassed those of Unix. Soon, however, Microsoft is going to be asking its server customers to switch to Longhorn Server, the next version of its Windows Server, which is due in 2007. Will they switch? Can Unix make a comeback?"

Who's up for a server war in 2007? I sure am!

Yet another year for Linux to undergo intense development, certification and all that happy stuff by Red Hat, Novell, IBM, HP and others, I gurantee you, this is not gonna be a push over battle for Microsoft, like when it slayed Netscape in 1998.

And with Sun talking about releasing their entire Solaris enterprise operating system under the GPLv3, I think Microsoft is gonna face not only tough, but fierce competition from GNU/Linux and UNIX!

F0r l0ngh0rn y0u still need t0 run expl0rer.exe shell 0n t0p 0f ur server... what is that all ab0ut. Servers sh0uld't run any GUI. N0t 0nly burn useful cpu cycles 0n stupid eye candy but y0u can't run any real app fr0m a rem0te l0cati0n securely en0ugh.

Jza wrote:F0r l0ngh0rn y0u still need t0 run expl0rer.exe shell 0n t0p 0f ur server... what is that all ab0ut. Servers sh0uld't run any GUI. N0t 0nly burn useful cpu cycles 0n stupid eye candy but y0u can't run any real app fr0m a rem0te l0cati0n securely en0ugh.

I agree. A GUI may help ease of use but thats only for tasks like burning cd's and such. The command line of UNIX/Linux is much more powerfull that Windows and would help with both uptime and resource usage. Linux was built for servers originally and thats what it does best at. Not to mention the great file structure and UNIX principles that make it more powerfull, easier to manage, and more secure. However at least half of all the sales can be won by marketing. I really see the Desktop as the real war right now.

CptnObvious999 wrote:I really see the Desktop as the real war right now.

Judging by posts in other theads, I think the real desktop battle, right now, is between Microsoft and Apple, because there are just some people who don't wanna use a commandprompt, and yet some people believe they should when they don't want to, and if that's the mentality we in the Linux community have, we'll never come close to winning the desktop. Apple can create a system where users don't have to use a single command, why can't we? Both Linux and OS X has this UNIX architecture, and design principles in their spine, so what's the problem for us creating an OS with a slick interface where commands are never required to do stuff, and those people who want to learn and use them, can go right ahead.

Tsuroerusu wrote:Judging by posts in other theads, I think the real desktop battle, right now, is between Microsoft and Apple, because there are just some people who don't wanna use a commandprompt, and yet some people believe they should when they don't want to, and if that's the mentality we in the Linux community have, we'll never come close to winning the desktop. Apple can create a system where users don't have to use a single command, why can't we? Both Linux and OS X has this UNIX architecture, and design principles in their spine, so what's the problem for us creating an OS with a slick interface where commands are never required to do stuff, and those people who want to learn and use them, can go right ahead.

I think you're mis-interpreting the stand on the command prompt thing. It's not that people believe they "should" be using it, it's more like trying to show people that using the Linux command prompt can be beneficial.

People who don't want to use the command prompt are probably people who have been trained to think that using the command prompt is bad (I don't have to tell you who's fault that is), or that they used it once on Microshaft and hate it (and I don't blame them).

But just because these people think this way doesn't mean that they are right. It just takes some time and effort to re-educate them. I'm seeing all kinds of people around me taking a second look at Linux, as they're becoming more frustrated with Microsoft. A year ago, there were two of us in the office who used Linux... we've got half a dozen now (most of which just in the last three months) and I see more people in the near future. The transition is already in motion and seeing a command prompt every now and again isn't stopping it.

Microshaft, in my opinion, is clearly underestimating the tolerance level of their customers.... don't fall into the same way of thinking.

Judland wrote:I think you're mis-interpreting the stand on the command prompt thing. It's not that people believe they "should" be using it, it's more like trying to show people that using the Linux command prompt can be beneficial.

Well, try and tell your wife/girlfriend that a commandprompt can be useful, geez!

Judland wrote:People who don't want to use the command prompt are probably people who have been trained to think that using the command prompt is bad (I don't have to tell you who's fault that is), or that they used it once on Microshaft and hate it (and I don't blame them).

Well, a lot of people, like my mom, don't want to remember the commandprompt thing, she just wanna know what button to push. Dude, if we build an operating system that makes things easy for an end user, and yet tries in a few areas to show them "You can do this much eaisier from the commandprompt", people will just go and buy a freaking Mac, because it never tries to show users a commandprompt. If we wanna beat Apple down the road after Microsoft is out of the way, we have "put the commandprompt in the closet" with those users who just wanna use a computer and not learn how it works and to do advanced stuff, to the kids who wants to be savy geeks, I say bring it on, but to people like my mom, aunt and potential future wife/girlfriend (I can't believe I just said that) you give them a nice interface that's intuitive and easy to use, don't even encourage them to use the commandprompt, because then something in their mind will click and they will go right back to Windows or to Mac, and both of those are proprietary, which I think is a bad thing!

Tsuroerusu wrote: Well, try and tell your wife/girlfriend that a commandprompt can be useful, geez!

I have done, thank you very much. She likes the idea of being to rip an entire CD with one simple command.

Tsuroerusu wrote: Well, a lot of people, like my mom, don't want to remember the commandprompt thing, she just wanna know what button to push. Dude, if we build an operating system that makes things easy for an end user, and yet tries in a few areas to show them "You can do this much eaisier from the commandprompt", people will just go and buy a freaking Mac, because it never tries to show users a commandprompt.

If this was the case, then why are the people I've helped adopt Linux still using it?

I don't think you're giving people enough credit.

Tsuroerusu wrote:

CptnObvious999 wrote:I really see the Desktop as the real war right now.

Judging by posts in other theads, I think the real desktop battle, right now, is between Microsoft and Apple, because there are just some people who don't wanna use a commandprompt, and yet some people believe they should when they don't want to, and if that's the mentality we in the Linux community have, we'll never come close to winning the desktop. Apple can create a system where users don't have to use a single command, why can't we? Both Linux and OS X has this UNIX architecture, and design principles in their spine, so what's the problem for us creating an OS with a slick interface where commands are never required to do stuff, and those people who want to learn and use them, can go right ahead.

Actually a lot of people use command prompt in Apple. I am not sure how automator works but I think is a form of applescript-automation, which is basically shellscript.

An interesting idea is to develop a GUI shell, which is basically, basic commands as toolbars and menus. That on click will insert the function and a good GUI to understand ls -l from ls -S.

Not because is gui it has to be on X, it could use Ncurses. Take it as a transitional shell.

Judland wrote:I have done, thank you very much. She likes the idea of being to rip an entire CD with one simple command.

I guess it's a matter of taste, but pretty much every non-savy computer user I know which I've gotten over on Linux, would run screaming to Microsoft if they would have to use a single command, a lot of people don't even understand the concept behind using commands, they just know how to use a mouse a click a button.

Judland wrote:If this was the case, then why are the people I've helped adopt Linux still using it?

Well, have you encouraged everyone of them to use the commandprompt and have you shown every one of them the terminal?

Judland wrote:I don't think you're giving people enough credit.

Maybe I'm not, I just want Linux to someday be the dominant operating system on the desktop, and we'll never get there if people always can point a finger at us at shout "That Linux, that's where you need to use commands", and I'm sure the Apple users will be able to do that, unless of course that we provide an OS where no commands is needed, and if people want to, they can use it.

Jza wrote:Actually a lot of people use command prompt in Apple. I am not sure how automator works but I think is a form of applescript-automation, which is basically shellscript.

Yeah, the advanced users. Does your typical 50 year old Mac user who just barely knows how to do email and surf the web use the terminal in OS X? I seriously doubt it, you need to go listen to Leo Laporte's KFI radio show, then you'll see how bad it actually is.

Tsuroerusu wrote: Well, have you encouraged everyone of them to use the commandprompt and have you shown every one of them the terminal?

I have shown them how to open a terminal, as well as the existence of virtual terminals. Do they use it much... I can't say, but they know it's there.

I was talking with a few of these people over the last few days. It seems as though we're going to create an in-office LUG. We'll get together one lunch hour a month and talk about things like how to do things in the command prompt and share cool Linux apps we've heard about and/or have used.

Best thing is, I didn't initiate this idea. Seems as though these people WANT to learn more (notice I didn't say NEED).

Judland wrote:Best thing is, I didn't initiate this idea. Seems as though these people WANT to learn more (notice I didn't say NEED).

As I stated at the beginning, if people want to learn stuff about Linux, or want to learn about computers, I say bring it on with the commandline stuff, just keep it in the closet when you're dealing with your typical non-savy/non-computer-interested person who just wanna do email and surf the web.

Tsuroerusu wrote:As I stated at the beginning, if people want to learn stuff about Linux, or want to learn about computers, I say bring it on with the commandline stuff, just keep it in the closet when you're dealing with your typical non-savy/non-computer-interested person who just wanna do email and surf the web.

Yup, I understand. And, for someone like my father, who's a happy Kanotix convert now, he doesn't see or deal with the command line at all.

It's been five months since I sent him his new Kanotix PC. He's quite happy.

Tsuroerusu wrote: I guess it's a matter of taste, but pretty much every non-savy computer user I know which I've gotten over on Linux, would run screaming to Microsoft if they would have to use a single command, a lot of people don't even understand the concept behind using commands, they just know how to use a mouse a click a button.

See here's where I have to call bullshit. Anyone who has been using a computer for 10 years remembers the time when you *HAD* to use the command prompt. Those were the days of DOS still. Before that, it was better yet.
Now in those days, non technical people all over used someputers, at home, at work, in school, etc. No GUI's as far as the eye could see (at least *nothing* like thy are today. Back then your GUI might have been a graphical file manager or some such thing if you were lucky. Or maybe some fancy ansi graphics!
If people could do it then, they can do it now. Windows is just giving people an excuse to be computer retarded.

I totally agree with the post about gui on a server - you should never have a gui on a server - you are wasting your companies capital especially if it remote - you are also killing bandwidth.

you can use linux and never see a command prompt - I do all the time.

I use the command prompt for remote server administration on my headless servers. don't need a gui on a server.

Linc wrote:See here's where I have to call bullshit. Anyone who has been using a computer for 10 years remembers the time when you *HAD* to use the command prompt. Those were the days of DOS still. Before that, it was better yet.
Now in those days, non technical people all over used someputers, at home, at work, in school, etc. No GUI's as far as the eye could see (at least *nothing* like thy are today. Back then your GUI might have been a graphical file manager or some such thing if you were lucky. Or maybe some fancy ansi graphics!
If people could do it then, they can do it now. Windows is just giving people an excuse to be computer retarded.

Along the same lines, here in my office, people still yearn for Wordperfect 5.1 in all its DOS glory but nope, we moved to MS Office XP and folks hate it. We also have a specialized piece of software here in the office and it has been DOS based since forever. Our staff loved it and it ran fine. Well, it was decided to "upgrade" to the newer GUI version and now they hate that too. They tell me that all the quick keystrokes are gone in favor of point and click GUI's and wizards. They said it's slower and crash-prone.

Go figure.