thelinuxlink.net

http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archiv ... ience.html
"Linux is about a large collection of people working toward a common goal. This common goal is to proliferate Linux to all corners of the globe as an alternative way of computing to the status quo that Microsoft gives us. It absolutely is not about being smarter than everyone or being able to look down one's nose at people."

Very interesting article, and brings up some good points, one that I'd like to highlight for everyone reading this is what the writer says about elitism.
A friend of mine recently switched to Linux and had a horrible experience on a danish Linux forum, but I'm afraid it's a problem in general, he asked a question that probably had been asked a million times, and he is not that used to forums, so he just made the topic "HELP!!!", which I can understand him at because he really was lost, the first three answers was not anything near any help, it was like "Stop the help thing, n00b", "Please do learn to practice good forum behavior", "RTFM, learn to use Google". Those kinds of answers really discourages you to learn stuff by the simple way of using something, it scares newbies away from Linux after such an experience, because a person like my friend has always used Windows, and he is used to it eaisily being able to do TV-out, I know for a fact that is hard in general to do, but it's even harder with ATi's crappy drivers, and then it only helps to scare to away from Linux if he gets treated like that the first time he uses a Linux forum. I like to see businesses deploy Linux and use it on the desktop, but be much more interested in seeing normal people, or just people who knows how to use the basic desktop functions and the applications they use to deply Linux at home and use it, but since we don't have support from Dell or HP on the consumer desktop, they don't have a phone number they can call if they have an issue, they relie on the community to help them, but if the community just snears at them when they do ask nicely for help it makes them go away in the end.

My point to this rant is: The Linux community needs to change, even if a question has been asked a billion times, we should just answer it once again, then the users will feel that people are willing to assist them, this is what we as experienced Linux people should use our knowledge for, it should not be used as a status symbol, or something used to say "I'm better than you are, because I'm 1337 at using mutt for email and you use them n00by GUI clients" or crap like that generally speaking. The answer to a question maybe easy FOR US to find, it's not necessarily obvious to everyone, especially the non-geeky users, or people who are just getting started. I think Linspire understands this, with their forum I don't hear people getting cursed at for asking program to use for email, I've seen postings saying "N00b, learn to read, "K" Mail", now what program do you think you need to use for emai?" which is horribly discouraging and shows that the person writing that is unwilling to use his knowledge to help the less knowledged user, which is just a way of sending the new people right back to Windows, and then they'll never try Linux again because they feel like it's a bad system because no one can, nor will help them with issues.

I know you mean well, Tsuroerusu, but to generalize the Linux community as "unhelpful" isn't the proper thing to do either, in my opinion.

It may not have been your intention, but when you state things like:

The Linux community needs to change, even if a question has been asked a billion times, we should just answer it once again...

it says to me that you think I'm not doing just this, hence your rant is about my behavior in the Linux community.

I enjoy helping people learn more about Linux and I'll offer any advice or help that I can to those asking for it. I also know that there are thousands of other people just like this in the community as well, many I like to consider friends.... as everyone here on TLLTS forums.

So, to generalize us, the Linux community (not members of the Linspire forums), as a bunch of insulting ego-maniacs is a little insulting on it's own.

One spoiled apple doesn't ruin the entire bushel, and I think there's more "good apples" in the Linux community than "bad".

Also, this isn't a problem with the Linux community alone. This is a problem with our societies in general. Go to any country club wearing an AC/DC t-shirt and jeans. Tell me the kind of reaction you get from the club members.

It would probably be best if this message was posted somewhere this sort of attitude is demonstrated. But that's just my opinion.

Tsuroerusu wrote:http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archiv ... ience.html
This common goal is to proliferate Linux to all corners of the globe as an alternative way of computing to the status quo that Microsoft gives us.

No, that is not the common goal. I couldn't care less if my next door neighbor uses Linux, much less someone in a corner of the globe. All the molecular biology labs at my college run OS X. Switching OS to linux would not make a difference to their scientific work.

My point to this rant is: The Linux community needs to change

There is no single Linux community. all your examples are of local forum communities. All forums have trolls. Not my problem.

this is what we as experienced Linux people should use our knowledge for

no. I use my experience with linux to build better solutions for my work. Linux is a means to an end, not an end in itself. And guess what? if a better solution comes along, I'm going to ditch linux for it.

And as for R-ingTFM, the ability to read documentation and literature for a solution is a valuable skill in any vocation. as the old saying goes, "build a man a fire, he will be warm for a day. set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life," or something like that.

thetza wrote:

Tsuroerusu wrote:http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archiv ... ience.html
This common goal is to proliferate Linux to all corners of the globe as an alternative way of computing to the status quo that Microsoft gives us.

No, that is not the common goal. I couldn't care less if my next door neighbor uses Linux, much less someone in a corner of the globe. All the molecular biology labs at my college run OS X. Switching OS to linux would not make a difference to their scientific work.

I'm only quoting part, but this entire response pretty much states exactly how I feel in better words than I could come up with.

Linux doesn't have to rule the world.

As far as helping newbies, I think just answering the same question the 1001th time without educating people on helping themselves helps no one. People need to respect the community and find out how things are done, rather than coming in and assuming the forum or mailing list is there solely to serve them. If we encourage that attitude there will eventually be no one left to answer questions.

There is, however, an art to answering the question and still educating someone on helping themself. It can be done.

Judland wrote:I know you mean well, Tsuroerusu, but to generalize the Linux community as "unhelpful" isn't the proper thing to do either, in my opinion.

I NEVER meant to imply that, what I mean is that there are too many elitists out there, that's not to say that all of us are.

thetza wrote:No, that is not the common goal. I couldn't care less if my next door neighbor uses Linux, much less someone in a corner of the globe. All the molecular biology labs at my college run OS X. Switching OS to linux would not make a difference to their scientific work.

OK, that was not something I said, that was just something I quoted, hence it being italic.

thetza wrote:There is no single Linux community. all your examples are of local forum communities. All forums have trolls. Not my problem.

Well, happens at Linuxquestions.org, on mailinglists and so forth, and I'm not trying to generalize anything or anyone.

thetza wrote:no. I use my experience with linux to build better solutions for my work. Linux is a means to an end, not an end in itself. And guess what? if a better solution comes along, I'm going to ditch linux for it.

I think you misunderstood my statement, I meant to say that we shouldn't use our knowledge as a reason to yell at the newbies when they ask a question, we should use it to help them.

thetza wrote:And as for R-ingTFM, the ability to read documentation and literature for a solution is a valuable skill in any vocation. as the old saying goes, "build a man a fire, he will be warm for a day. set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life," or something like that.

Yeah but man pages aren't exactly newbie friendy in my opinion, especially if we're talking about a lesser experienced computer user. I can't agree with the "build a man a fire, he will be warm for a day. set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life," to a degree, when we just answer a newbie's questions, we ARE teaching him something, say if he asked "Why does Linux not support TV-out very well?" well, then we just explain to him that, that it's because the hardware guys either don't release drivers that support it very well, but also because X-Window was never designed to do that. And in case the guy who answers spends more than 2 mins. writing his answer he could explain what X-Window is and wolla we've thought the user a little about how a Linux distribution is constructed.

Gomer_X wrote:As far as helping newbies, I think just answering the same question the 1001th time without educating people on helping themselves helps no one. People need to respect the community and find out how things are done, rather than coming in and assuming the forum or mailing list is there solely to serve them. If we encourage that attitude there will eventually be no one left to answer questions.

Well, you don't necessarily have to write a thesis when someone asks something, just dump a link for an easy to understand HOWTO, this would be a good example: http://www.suse.de/~sndirsch/ati-installer-HOWTO.html

Gomer_X wrote:There is, however, an art to answering the question and still educating someone on helping themself. It can be done.

Well, then I'm an artist, because I feel I can do that with ease.

Tsuroerusu wrote:

Judland wrote:I know you mean well, Tsuroerusu, but to generalize the Linux community as "unhelpful" isn't the proper thing to do either, in my opinion.

I NEVER meant to imply that, what I mean is that there are too many elitists out there, that's not to say that all of us are.

Deep down, I knew you didn't really mean to do that... but if I didn't "know" you better, I would have felt really insulted.

I like to consider myself a part of the Linux community, and although I have had my run-in with similar kinds of individuals, like you've described, overall my experiences have been really good.

However, I probably have had better experiences (as a newbie) as many other newbies because I do try and hang out in a forum a little bit before posting questions of my own.

I do this for basically two reasons. First: to see if anyone has already asked a similar question and got an answer. Second: to see what kind of people the majority of forum members are like. If there's a lot of arguing or "RTFM stooopid newbie" responses, chances are I won't be posting there or will even avoid trying the distro altogether.

Actually, this was one (of many) reasons why I didn't like my Mepis experience all that much. It wasn't from the community vibe, but from a response I got from Warren himself. That kind of was the final nail in that coffin for me.

Judland wrote:Actually, this was one (of many) reasons why I didn't like my Mepis experience all that much. It wasn't from the community vibe, but from a response I got from Warren himself. That kind of was the final nail in that coffin for me.

Care to elaborate? I'm sure others would like to know as well.

Just the tone of the response I got on a question I posted regarding re-distribution of the ISO. It was perfectly justified, as it was his creation.

Other distro. creators have handled the same question differently and left me with a better feeling.

That's about all the detail I'd like to go into.