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http://www.stallman.org/archives/2008-m ... ing%20aid)

# 16 May 2008 (Burmese junta blocking aid)

The Burmese junta has succeeded in blocking nearly all aid to the victims of the cyclone, in effect holding them hostage.

As long as the rest of the world is afraid of a military confrontation with the junta, it will tend to learn the twisted lessons that this article seems to recommend. I think the lesson to be learned is "Invade Burma". But that has to be part of a larger lesson, including "Don't invade Iraq".

A lot of people get the idea that Stallman is some kind of idealistic pacifist. I posted before about him saying how he supported the war in Afghanistan while he's dead against the Iraq war. Now he thinks Burma should be invaded.

I think we should invade the tndia based help centers instead, so we can put americans back to work.

eddie wrote:I think we should invade the tndia based help centers instead, so we can put americans back to work.

Contrary to what most people think, more jobs are actually insourced to the United States than the opposite, which American workers benefit from.

For the past 15 years, corporations have moved jobs to the United States at a faster rate than jobs have left, for an 82 percent increase in insourced jobs compared to a 23 percent increase in outsourced jobs.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba480/

Wally Balljacker wrote:

eddie wrote:I think we should invade the tndia based help centers instead, so we can put americans back to work.

Contrary to what most people think, more jobs are actually insourced to the United States than the opposite, which American workers benefit from.

For the past 15 years, corporations have moved jobs to the United States at a faster rate than jobs have left, for an 82 percent increase in insourced jobs compared to a 23 percent increase in outsourced jobs.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba480/

I've heard that argument before and it's a bogus stat, and a bogus argument. For the purpose of getting this so called high "insourced" jobs number they are really comparing two different things.

The jobs that the U.S. is outsourcing are jobs that produce products and services to sell to our U.S. market. The jobs that people like to make the argument that are "insourced" like Japanese and German Automobile manufacturing jobs are also jobs that produce products and services that sell to our U.S. market. If these were jobs that were coming here from counties to produce a product or service to sell back to their own market thn I would call them real "insourced" jobs.

There are practically no jobs that are truly outsourced to the U.S. to sell a product back to their own market. The U.S. is truly outsourcing jobs to make a product or service to be sold here to bring labour costs down. These so called "insourcing" jobs that you site are not for that same purpose for other countries. They are to enable them to more easily sell into our market. They are totally different things for different reasons and very different effects.

More than that, Greggh, often those insourced jobs are being gobbled up by immigrants and that money is then sent to the relatives of those immigrants in those other countries, not spend on American soil. Basically, it boils down to this:

High(er) paying tech jobs are outsourced to countries like India.
Textiles manufacturing is outsourced to China and places nearby.
Lower paying non-knowledge positions are filled by immigrants (and often FOB immigrants at that) since quite often they can be paid less and worked harder.

The argument that this isn't a trend is bogus. That said, this is probably what you can expect when education is given such a low priority by both the government and the students. It's also the logical outcome for a free-market where keeping prices up and cost of production down is king. It would stop tomorrow if American people actually paid more than lip service to their irritation, but we continue to make shitty products and shitty service profitable by buying and grumbling rather than giving the finger to "The Bad Guys."

Snarkout wrote: It's also the logical outcome for a free-market where keeping prices up and cost of production down is king.

We both agree on something
I have looked at Participatory economics as a good economic alternative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parecon

allix wrote:

Snarkout wrote: It's also the logical outcome for a free-market where keeping prices up and cost of production down is king.

We both agree on something
I have looked at Participatory economics as a good economic alternative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parecon

* sigh *
Good luck getting any-freaking-body to use it!

Tsuroerusu wrote: * sigh *
Good luck getting any-freaking-body to use it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3 ... orporation

The Mondragón Cooperative Corporation (Spanish: Mondragón Corporación Cooperativa - MCC) is a group of manufacturing and retail companies based in the Basque Country and extended over the rest of Spain and abroad. It is one of the world's largest worker cooperatives and one important example of workers' self-management.

Its very interesting to watch. worker cooperatives.

In Argentina workers took control of factories , have a look at the take
http://www.thetake.org/

allix wrote:

Tsuroerusu wrote: * sigh *
Good luck getting any-freaking-body to use it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3 ... orporation

Fair enough. However I was referring more to an entire country, like Venezuela, Norway or somebody else.

allix wrote:

The Mondragón Cooperative Corporation (Spanish: Mondragón Corporación Cooperativa - MCC) is a group of manufacturing and retail companies based in the Basque Country and extended over the rest of Spain and abroad. It is one of the world's largest worker cooperatives and one important example of workers' self-management.

Its very interesting to watch. worker cooperatives.

In Argentina workers took control of factories , have a look at the take
http://www.thetake.org/

Well, I think you're forgetting that this does not make any impact at all, on the global systems in general. Who the heck cares about a few companies in Spain, when you have hundreds of companies and thousands of factories in China, India and other countries.

I can promise you, that if I were to start an IT consulting company (Which many people I fix computers for, say I should do) tomorrow, I would from the beginning make sure, that it was not just "ruled", so to speak, from the top and down, but rather had some form of democracy.
However, this would not change dick in the world, who cares about a Danish company potentially utilizing what you are proposing, when big companies like IBM, Sun, Daimler-Chrystler (Or however the heck it's spelled ), HP and many many others, does not.
I agree that big things start small (The Scandinavian welfare model started very small 90 years ago, and is extremely sophisticated today), but I am not so deluded (Let me say that I am NOT implying that you are deluded) that I think that a group of manufacturing entities, or even a small country moving to participatory economics is gonna change anything in the global economy.

I would recommend you take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Bernstein#Views
The views summarized are largely what has been the case for my country and our closest neighbors.

I do agree that the examples I have given you do not effect the world economy in a big way, but at least you and me agree every little helps or that you must start from somewhere.

allix wrote:I do agree that the examples I have given you do not effect the world economy in a big way, but at least you and me agree every little helps or that you must start from somewhere.

"Change happens from the bottom up," - Barack Obama

In fact without a world revolution , a revolution will not be able to withstand time, because of the old order that's keeping it from doing so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Revolution

Trotsky tried to emphasize this in the ^ above article against Stalins Socialism in on country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_One_Country , That is more proof that Stalin was not a marxist/communist

A world revolution is what is needed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin#Cens ... viet_Union

Censorship of Lenin in the Soviet Union

Lenin’s writings were carefully censored under the Soviet regime after his death. In the early 1930s, it became accepted dogma under Stalin to assume that neither Lenin nor the Central Committee could ever be wrong. Therefore, it was necessary to remove evidence of situations where they had actually disagreed, since in those situations it was impossible for both to have been right at the same time. Trotsky was a particularly vocal critic of these practices, which he saw as a form of deification of a mere human being who could, and did, make mistakes.[70] Later, even the fifth “complete” Soviet edition of Lenin’s works (published in 55 thick volumes between 1958 and 1965) left out parts that either contradicted dogma or showed their author in too poor a light

They you go, Lenin was censored by Stalin.

allix wrote:A world revolution is what is needed

Sounds like a recipe for the collapse of modern civilization.