Taking Linux advocacy to the "mainstream" tech press

[allix]

Sure, there's no reason why they could not, it's just that they had not. Fedora is not a distribution that intends to wipe the asses of incompetent Windows users for them, every step of the way. If you want something that does that (What a concept ...), you should probably look at something like Linspire or Xandros.

This is the wrong attitude to take , this is what puts off people new coming to linux . They do not want to be told they are a n00bs .
When was the last time your sister compiled a driver on windows? if the answer is she never did, then that should be the answer for linux.

That can vary QUITE a bit, from driver to driver. For example, with my laptop (ThinkPad X31) the WIP ath5k driver for the Atheros card works fine, however it has made some machines utilizing Atheros cards lock-up, so it's a double-edged sword including that one, it would be absolutely insane to include it in a distribution like RHEL.

From my understanding its still a driver in development, fedora tend to include very stable development software, just look at the version of x.ORG included with fedora 9 , which the nvidia drivers blobs won;t work with, however that's just not a issue as fedora do not care about blobs, however it does not take the fact away its development software. Another reason its in there is because madwifi is the only other driver that works with your card but its non-free software, fedora want to get this driver tested so they include it.

[Tsuroerusu]

Sure, there's no reason why they could not, it's just that they had not. Fedora is not a distribution that intends to wipe the asses of incompetent Windows users for them, every step of the way. If you want something that does that (What a concept ...), you should probably look at something like Linspire or Xandros.

This is the wrong attitude to take , this is what puts off people new coming to linux . They do not want to be told they are a n00bs .

I am not taking this attitude, and I am not telling anybody that they're a n00b, I'm just using a bit of "blunt" language to illustrate my point I guess. Also, you could go on to argue that people should not be dependant on "community support" but have commercial support available etc. and the list goes on and on and becomes absurd.

When was the last time your sister compiled a driver on windows? if the answer is she never did, then that should be the answer for linux.

I both agree and disagree. For distros that want to be appealing to Windows users, sure I completely agree, compiling drivers and all that stuff is a non-option. However for distros that don't explicitly aim for this, I think it's absurdly ridiculous to expect them to include whatever you think should be included. You could also argue that for a distro trying to be appealing to Windows users, should package every single application available for GNU/Linux, and have them in a repository, because new users wouldn't know how to install a program that wasn't packaged for their distribution, because they never have to install from source on Windows. Oh my ...
In the case of Fedora, this is not the primary goal, nor is it the primary goal of CentOS, Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc. etc.
Fedora's goals are stated quite clearly on the project's website: "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software. Fedora is always free for anyone to use, modify, and distribute."

That can vary QUITE a bit, from driver to driver. For example, with my laptop (ThinkPad X31) the WIP ath5k driver for the Atheros card works fine, however it has made some machines utilizing Atheros cards lock-up, so it's a double-edged sword including that one, it would be absolutely insane to include it in a distribution like RHEL.

From my understanding its still a driver in development, fedora tend to include very stable development software, just look at the version of x.ORG included with fedora 9 , which the nvidia drivers blobs won;t work with, however that's just not a issue as fedora do not care about blobs, however it does not take the fact away its development software. Another reason its in there is because madwifi is the only other driver that works with your card but its non-free software, fedora want to get this driver tested so they include it.

Indeed, and I support both decisions of Fedora (And just in case you wanted to know, NVIDIA has updated their driver so it does work with Fedora 9 now).

[LinuxMint-4]

Speaking of drivers, I'd just like to mention the most recent update of Ubuntu 8.04 broke the wireless on Atheros 5007 on that Compaq F700 (F762NR) . A simple command line did not restore it, because the mad wifi site was down. So a modification of the command line took care of the problem. Since the mad wi fi script was already in the system the part contained in the script with the mad wifi site was not needed.

Anyway the mad wi-fi site is back on. But just something to be aware of. What happened apparently was that the update (actually 187 updates) included a kernel update and that supposedly caused the wifi to stop working. If anyone needs the command or script and/or the modified one, in case mad wifi's site is down...I'll post it.

[hellonorman]

I both agree and disagree. For distros that want to be appealing to Windows users, sure I completely agree, compiling drivers and all that stuff is a non-option. However for distros that don't explicitly aim for this, I think it's absurdly ridiculous to expect them to include whatever you think should be included. You could also argue that for a distro trying to be appealing to Windows users, should package every single application available for GNU/Linux, and have them in a repository, because new users wouldn't know how to install a program that wasn't packaged for their distribution, because they never have to install from source on Windows. Oh my ...
In the case of Fedora, this is not the primary goal, nor is it the primary goal of CentOS, Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc. etc.
Fedora's goals are stated quite clearly on the project's website: "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software. Fedora is always free for anyone to use, modify, and distribute."

It's not about appealing to "windows users" or "easy enough for sheep". If you are distributing an operating system to be used on a computer users desktop/laptop
than there are inherent goals that come along with that. You know things like working sound, video, fonts, hardware and of course internet connection. What kind of showcase is it to put linux on a persons laptop and then have to explain that they can't use wireless internet?

There are still too many things that don't work or take too much effort to get to work for someone like Leo Laporte to start directing his callers to use linux. I agree with the poster above that this sounded much more like a personal issue of Pat's. I think Pat got pissed off by a couple of comments on some twit network shows and then rationalized an bashing epidemic and a plan to "get back at them".

[weex]

There are still too many things that don't work or take too much effort to get to work for someone like Leo Laporte to start directing his callers to use linux.

Gotta disagree with this. Linux is ready and believe it. Ubuntu is ready. You might have to tweak the wireless but even Windows needs lots of tweaks before I'd consider it useful. You know, little things like Firefox, Open Office, treesize, and printer and scanner drivers?

If it's a desktop that's hard wired, it's all the more ready. When people see you have to tweak the wireless for them, you can tell them that some companies are rather closed about their hardware and don't share enough info with the community. Next time they buy a wifi card or a printer, they might ask "Does this work with Linux?" which will have the kind of impact we want. Fully supported hardware. Who can argue with that?

The important thing is to get started installing Linux for people...I'm thinking of providing some live form of support to people who are curious about Linux but just shy of burning an ISO.

[hellonorman]

There are still too many things that don't work or take too much effort to get to work for someone like Leo Laporte to start directing his callers to use linux.

Gotta disagree with this. Linux is ready and believe it. Ubuntu is ready. You might have to tweak the wireless but even Windows needs lots of tweaks before I'd consider it useful. You know, little things like Firefox, Open Office, treesize, and printer and scanner drivers?

If it's a desktop that's hard wired, it's all the more ready. When people see you have to tweak the wireless for them, you can tell them that some companies are rather closed about their hardware and don't share enough info with the community. Next time they buy a wifi card or a printer, they might ask "Does this work with Linux?" which will have the kind of impact we want. Fully supported hardware. Who can argue with that?

The important thing is to get started installing Linux for people...I'm thinking of providing some live form of support to people who are curious about Linux but just shy of burning an ISO.

It's not a tweak to stick a cd in and install a driver or go to a website and download software and simply double click install. A tweak would be hunting in dark corners for some half working driver that you have to compile yourself and then wonder if it will even work or not.

It's a matter of perspective. Most users are intrigued enough when I show them linux. However when it comes down to the fact that their wireless card won't work and they can't watch Lost online and the buttons don't work on their printer...it doesn't matter why but only that they are losing something without windows.

Next time they buy a wifi card? They just spent over $600-$1000 for a laptop that has a wireless card in it. By the time next time comes around linux is a distant memory.

[Patrick]

I agree with the poster above that this sounded much more like a personal issue of Pat's. I think Pat got pissed off by a couple of comments on some twit network shows and then rationalized an bashing epidemic and a plan to "get back at them".

Again, I like Leo Laporte. I've been a fan since The Screensavers since the ZDTV days. I have nothing personal against him. I do have issue is his TWIT network cohorts bashing on Linux and F/OSS in general. Calling up his radio and asking questions related to Linux is not "to get back at them". I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. I think we need to raise the awareness of Linux in the mainstream Tech media including syndicated radio shows. These shows reach millions of people. More than any podcast. Leo's show is one of them. Kim Kommando is another. I'm down for calling her show too. The Computer America guys already dedicate one show a month to Linux. Why can't these other shows do something similar? If you don't want to take part in this campaign then don't.

[Patrick]

I just found out about this radio show which is based out of Phoenix and covers Linux all the time:
http://www.gutsygeeks.com/
http://www.gutsygeeks.com/audio/

Our friend Scott Ruecker from Lxer is on the latest episode. The show was formerly called PC Chat. Good luck to them.

[Tsuroerusu]

I both agree and disagree. For distros that want to be appealing to Windows users, sure I completely agree, compiling drivers and all that stuff is a non-option. However for distros that don't explicitly aim for this, I think it's absurdly ridiculous to expect them to include whatever you think should be included. You could also argue that for a distro trying to be appealing to Windows users, should package every single application available for GNU/Linux, and have them in a repository, because new users wouldn't know how to install a program that wasn't packaged for their distribution, because they never have to install from source on Windows. Oh my ...
In the case of Fedora, this is not the primary goal, nor is it the primary goal of CentOS, Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc. etc.
Fedora's goals are stated quite clearly on the project's website: "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software. Fedora is always free for anyone to use, modify, and distribute."

It's not about appealing to "windows users" or "easy enough for sheep". If you are distributing an operating system to be used on a computer users desktop/laptop
than there are inherent goals that come along with that. You know things like working sound, video, fonts, hardware and of course internet connection. What kind of showcase is it to put linux on a persons laptop and then have to explain that they can't use wireless internet?

I just tell people to go spend like 50 bucks on another wireless card. If they were to switch to a Mac, they'd have to buy a whole new computer (And an expensive one at that!) for that, so I think buying another wireless card is really really modest to say.
The people that I have successfully (The unsuccessful ones were caused by other factors than driver support) converted to Linux, either just ignored the wireless stuff because they never used it anyway, or bought a PCMCIA wireless card that I recommended.
Is it really that bad to have to potentially buy another wireless card if you switch to Linux? Compared to buying a new and expensive machine if you switch to a Mac?

It's not a tweak to stick a cd in and install a driver or go to a website and download software and simply double click install. A tweak would be hunting in dark corners for some half working driver that you have to compile yourself and then wonder if it will even work or not.

You sure have one heck of a rosy picture of Windows and wireless. I have had experience where I was thinking to myself "Geez, Linux works so much better!" when messing with wireless on people's Windows machines. If it wasn't Windows' own wireless manager program that conflicted with a 3rd party wireless manager (Many insist on shipping their own), it would be a buggy and cruddy driver. If it was not that, it would be some other weird thing.

It's a matter of perspective. Most users are intrigued enough when I show them linux. However when it comes down to the fact that their wireless card won't work and they can't watch Lost online and the buttons don't work on their printer...it doesn't matter why but only that they are losing something without windows.

I have noticed a bunch of Mac users at school, and they don't seem to be bothered by things such as the fact that they can't do things like watching some TV programs online (In Denmark the two major TV stations make it possible for you to watch different things online, one of them uses DRM, the other just has a love affair with WMV, although the former is the most problematic), can't use certain programs etc.
I find it really fascinating that users seem to ignore the issues that the Mac platform has, but when they face those same problems on Linux, they notice them immediately.

[allix]

I both agree and disagree. For distros that want to be appealing to Windows users, sure I completely agree, compiling drivers and all that stuff is a non-option. However for distros that don't explicitly aim for this, I think it's absurdly ridiculous to expect them to include whatever you think should be included. You could also argue that for a distro trying to be appealing to Windows users, should package every single application available for GNU/Linux, and have them in a repository, because new users wouldn't know how to install a program that wasn't packaged for their distribution, because they never have to install from source on Windows. Oh my ...
In the case of Fedora, this is not the primary goal, nor is it the primary goal of CentOS, Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc. etc.
Fedora's goals are stated quite clearly on the project's website: "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software. Fedora is always free for anyone to use, modify, and distribute."

There is no need to be a apologist for any distros lapses. Out of all the distros you mentioned , I would say Debian have the biggest repositary, weather of course it has what you want is another problem and I don;t make any excuses for that. Someone in Debian should sort it out. That is not a complaint but a constructive criticism. If they is not a windows or mac pre-compiled package, they will not bother and I see there reasoning.

Computers are tools to an end to the majority of people to get something done, if its a pain to use , they not going touch it.

[allix]

I just tell people to go spend like 50 bucks on another wireless card. If they were to switch to a Mac, they'd have to buy a whole new computer (And an expensive one at that!) for that, so I think buying another wireless card is really really modest to say.
The people that I have successfully (The unsuccessful ones were caused by other factors than driver support) converted to Linux, either just ignored the wireless stuff because they never used it anyway, or bought a PCMCIA wireless card that I recommended.
Is it really that bad to have to potentially buy another wireless card if you switch to Linux? Compared to buying a new and expensive machine if you switch to a Mac?

One of the great obstacles is getting linux on the box of required hardware. If its does not mention osx , apple users will not buy it, on linux you have to search the net, which is not for everyone. In regard to Macs being expensive, i think its vastly exaggerated. Me and my girlfriend bought laptops recently with similar specs to the macbooks and for the same price. I am not sure how much there desktops are but I cannot imagine them being that expensive.

You seem to be comparing the price of apple products to individually made pcs, which of course is going be cheaper. AFAIK you cannot make a mac from components otherwise it would be cheap as well..

You sure have one heck of a rosy picture of Windows and wireless. I have had experience where I was thinking to myself "Geez, Linux works so much better!" when messing with wireless on people's Windows machines. If it wasn't Windows' own wireless manager program that conflicted with a 3rd party wireless manager (Many insist on shipping their own), it would be a buggy and cruddy driver. If it was not that, it would be some other weird thing.

The laptop I had vista on before I wiped it, the wireless worked fine, girlfriends laptop works fine as well with vista, my brothers with vista as well.
If you look at the problem calmly , I am sure its just a matter of installing a driver and not swearing in vein "this is not working, so its shit, so all windows driver must be bullshit" and whacking your head against a table.

I find it really fascinating that users seem to ignore the issues that the Mac platform has, but when they face those same problems on Linux, they notice them immediately.

Fair point , many programs are just not available on mac. Most Mac users are aware of this before buying one though. Having said that I saw a bunch of barely a month old macbooks on ebay recently, I do wonder if there from disappointed windows users who were pissed of that some game did not work and are now scrambling to sell them.

[dann]

Hmmmm... No one wants to be an apologist for Linux but we do have to face some facts here and look to cleaning house as we move forward to more evangelizing/promoting of Linux.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Linux has come a long way in the past 5 years and is more than ready for the desktop. But maybe not everyone's desktop. Just as Windows may not be the right choice for everyone, nor Apple be the right choice for everyone. Said choice must be determined by the individual who is aware that he or she is able to make an educated choice.

The majority of people are able to take a computer home, plug it all together, get it up and running/connected to their isp with instructions and probably plug in a scanner or printer and install software for the device. Again, with instructions. Most people can do this successfully so long as nothing goes wrong; and it does; time and again with both Windows and Apple. That is why services like geeksquad exist.

Beyond that, most people will not peruse anything beyond installing software from a box or download without hand holding, be it paid support or instructions.

To that end, Linux is not playing with a level field, but it is getting less steep. The general population does not have the avenues to purchase Linux pre-installed systems as easily as they do Windows or Apple systems. To expect a person to install an OS, any OS, is ridiculous. Sure, maybe there will be a few people who rise to the challenge, but most won't. They will not because they are too intimidated by technology and will depend on someone else more "skilled" to help them - a relative, firend, or support service.

Perhaps more effort needs to be targeted to support infrastructure. Should aunt Tilly hear on Twit that maybe she should try ubuntu, then proceeds to install it but needs help, who can she turn to? What if her relatives don't know anything about linux? Geek squad isn't going to help. How is she going to get on line for help if her computer is down? Hell, how would she even find and burn an Ubuntu cd if it came down to it?

I think the bulk of the problem in the Linux community is the actual installation of a distro itself. Having pre-installed systems will probably take care of 90% of the problems people first coming to LInux will have. It's only a matter of time before we have more of those available.

Once we push to the side the installation and driver issue on the initial setup we can start addressing the whole Free/Closed software offerrings or lack of, peripheral inclusion, etc. Let's face it, those problems are never going to go away. They plague both Apple and MS to this day.

Now I am just brain dumping here.

[LinuxMint-4]

Perhaps more effort needs to be targeted to support infrastructure. Should aunt Tilly hear on Twit that maybe she should try ubuntu, then proceeds to install it but needs help, who can she turn to? What if her relatives don't know anything about linux? Geek squad isn't going to help. How is she going to get on line for help if her computer is down? Hell, how would she even find and burn an Ubuntu cd if it came down to it?

I think the bulk of the problem in the Linux community is the actual installation of a distro itself. Having pre-installed systems will probably take care of 90% of the problems people first coming to LInux will have. It's only a matter of time before we have more of those available.

Like recent updates to Ubuntu 8.04 broke my wireless disabled my add/remove. And for others caused problems with their Grub, video drivers and list seems to be growing at the Ubuntu forums. Just my opinion, but a updates from Ubuntu should not break anything.

These are the problems that will plague "Aunt Tilly" and others who thought they did the "right thing" by installing updates. I never had windows updates killing wireless or anything else. I did once have a problem with trying to get the updates from Windows and "Dial a Fix" took care of that rather nicely.


I fixed the Ubuntu problems, since I had another computer and a forum to go to help resolve the problems.

May I add another comment here? Anyone installing Ubuntu for someone, I suggest turn off the updates before handing over the computer to a noob. Unless troubleshooting a kernel update is ones idea of fun.

[Tsuroerusu]

I both agree and disagree. For distros that want to be appealing to Windows users, sure I completely agree, compiling drivers and all that stuff is a non-option. However for distros that don't explicitly aim for this, I think it's absurdly ridiculous to expect them to include whatever you think should be included. You could also argue that for a distro trying to be appealing to Windows users, should package every single application available for GNU/Linux, and have them in a repository, because new users wouldn't know how to install a program that wasn't packaged for their distribution, because they never have to install from source on Windows. Oh my ...
In the case of Fedora, this is not the primary goal, nor is it the primary goal of CentOS, Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD etc. etc.
Fedora's goals are stated quite clearly on the project's website: "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in free and open source software. Fedora is always free for anyone to use, modify, and distribute."

There is no need to be a apologist for any distros lapses.

I'd like to kindly ask you to retract that comment, I seriously do not appreciate being called an apologist!
I am not apologizing for anybody, I just think you saying something is unacceptable, simply because you think everybody should do it, is a dumb argument.

Out of all the distros you mentioned , I would say Debian have the biggest repositary, weather of course it has what you want is another problem and I don;t make any excuses for that. Someone in Debian should sort it out. That is not a complaint but a constructive criticism.

I am all for constructive criticism, when it makes some darn sense. And I think you're making silly criticism. The way I interpret your reasoning is that nobody can create a Linux distribution and then not do something you think should be done universally, because it may not align with their goals, and then not be "unacceptable". Take BackTrack (Security auditing distro), I assume you find it "unacceptable" because they don't include Adobe Acrobat, RealPlayer, Java or what the heck ever.

If they is not a windows or mac pre-compiled package, they will not bother and I see there reasoning.

And why the heck can't people not do that with GNU/Linux? If there isn't a package for a particular application for a distribution a person might be using, just don't use that application and find something else! That's what people do in Windows and Mac, I think it's an absurd mentality to think that Linux must be absolutely perfect in every aspect, when the competition certainly are not.

I just tell people to go spend like 50 bucks on another wireless card. If they were to switch to a Mac, they'd have to buy a whole new computer (And an expensive one at that!) for that, so I think buying another wireless card is really really modest to say.
The people that I have successfully (The unsuccessful ones were caused by other factors than driver support) converted to Linux, either just ignored the wireless stuff because they never used it anyway, or bought a PCMCIA wireless card that I recommended.
Is it really that bad to have to potentially buy another wireless card if you switch to Linux? Compared to buying a new and expensive machine if you switch to a Mac?

One of the great obstacles is getting linux on the box of required hardware.

Oh please, have you ever tried installing Linux on a machine where it generally did not work? I have never seen that!

If its does not mention osx , apple users will not buy it,

Fine, how come it can do be the same with Linux?

on linux you have to search the net, which is not for everyone.

OK, then what do you suppose we do? Email folks a flyer?

In regard to Macs being expensive, i think its vastly exaggerated.Me and my girlfriend bought laptops recently with similar specs to the macbooks and for the same price. I am not sure how much there desktops are but I cannot imagine them being that expensive.

OK, then explain this to me:

Cheapest iMac: 7.999,00 DKK
2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1GB memory
ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT with 128MB memory
250GB hard drive
http://store.apple.com/dk/browse/home/s ... o=MjI4NDk4

Cheapest Dell XPS with a monitor included: 7.690 DKK
Intel® Processor Q6600 Quad Core™ (2.40GHz, 1066Mhz FSB, 8MB cache)
2048 MB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM på 800 MHz [2x1024]
256MB ATI® Radeon® HD 3650 Graphics card
500 GB Seriel ATA/100-harddisk (7.200 omdr./min.) med 16 MB DataBurst™-cache
http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/produ ... l=da&s=dhs

Not only is this Dell machine slightly cheaper than the iMac, but it's more powerful in every single regard. Got four cores instead of two, twice as much memory, a better graphics card and twice as big a hard drive. And please don't give me the "you're comparing apples to oranges" (No pun intended), I am comparing computers intended for freaking home use. The Mac Pro tower machines are obviously professional workstations!

You seem to be comparing the price of apple products to individually made pcs, which of course is going be cheaper. AFAIK you cannot make a mac from components otherwise it would be cheap as well..

Actually, these days, building a PC by buying every individual component and assembling it yourself, is often more expensive than buying a machine from Dell, because Dell buys so many components at once that they get rebates. This wasn't the case 5 years ago.

You sure have one heck of a rosy picture of Windows and wireless. I have had experience where I was thinking to myself "Geez, Linux works so much better!" when messing with wireless on people's Windows machines. If it wasn't Windows' own wireless manager program that conflicted with a 3rd party wireless manager (Many insist on shipping their own), it would be a buggy and cruddy driver. If it was not that, it would be some other weird thing.

The laptop I had vista on before I wiped it, the wireless worked fine, girlfriends laptop works fine as well with vista, my brothers with vista as well.
If you look at the problem calmly , I am sure its just a matter of installing a driver and not swearing in vein "this is not working, so its shit, so all windows driver must be bullshit" and whacking your head against a table.[/quote]
Would you mind taking my statement in context? I didn't say that "so all windows driver must be bullshit", I said Windows is not without it's problems, and mentioned some experiences I have had, when people had bought some wireless cards (Which actually were ones that would have worked nicely on Linux) that had cruddy Windows drivers, or required me to install the driver the way I used to do on WIndows 98, to avoid getting some 3rd party wireless manager installed that would conflict with Windows' built-in wireless manager.

[LinuxMint-4]

I just found out about this radio show which is based out of Phoenix and covers Linux all the time:
http://www.gutsygeeks.com/
http://www.gutsygeeks.com/audio/

Our friend Scott Ruecker from Lxer is on the latest episode. The show was formerly called PC Chat. Good luck to them.

Thanks for the tip, pretty good show.