Taking Linux advocacy to the "mainstream" tech press

[RandalSchwartz]

I'm glad Randal has addressed the issue to us but I still believe that there are many TWiT listeners that have taken the comment to mean "Linux is not reliable enough to run on important stuff".

Or, there's a third option. For someone to get offended by "I don't run Linux on anything important", they must have the exact polar opposite belief of "Linux is good enough to run on everything that's important, but for some reason, Randal doesn't understand that". However, for the sane majority, the middle ground is "sometimes, the choice of Linux involves a number of factors, and maybe Randal isn't detailing his reason for choice".

I think you're still making a mountain out of a molehill.

Keep in mind, this is a live show and that was an offtopic remark, and I am not the host: Leo is. He moved on to the actual topic at hand: Hans Reiser. For me to have re-interrupted to explain my position more would have been betraying my position as a guest. This is the reality of these live, rapid-fire shows.

I have more than explained my position. I also believe that it had less of an effect on the audience than you believe. As in, I would dare you to find me a single individual who was "on the fence" about open source for whom my comment made one bit of difference. Before you start worrying about appropriate responses to this travesty, why don't you go find me that person, ok? Really.

And now, here's the real test. Would it have mattered to you if I had swayed someone away from Linux and towards BSD? And if so, doesn't that say more about being a Linux uber alles person than about being committed to the larger goal of Open Source uber alles?

[walter_mellon]

This is getting embarrassing. As a Linux and open source software user it makes me cringe to see the kind of fanboy hyperdefensiveness of some in our community. It really makes us look bad. I am pragmatic enough not to get offended by someone wanting something that "just works", but I do get offended by zealots who tell me I am a sellout for not using gNuisance. I am also freely willing to concede that OpenBSD is more secure than Linux, at least out of the box.
Anyone doubting Randall's open source cred at this point is making a spectacle of his sheer, blazing ignorance. I enjoy Randall's podcasts; if I have a complaint, it's that he doesn't do them often enough. Like Pat says, save your complaints for the pencil-dicks on MacBreak Weekly or Paul "Leave Vista Alone!" Thurrott.
Keep up the good work Randall.

[Gomer_X]

The fact he's running BSD just goes to prove he is a FLOSS advocate. However the fact remains that had Randal said "I run BSD on all my important stuff" none of us would have been annoyed. I'm glad Randal has addressed the issue to us but I still believe that there are many TWiT listeners that have taken the comment to mean "Linux is not reliable enough to run on important stuff".

I don't think a few misinformed TWit Listeners is the end of the world.

If someone from FreeBSD came on the show (TLLTS, that is) and said that BSD was more reliable than Linux, there might be some healthy discussion, but no one would call him a traitor to free software.

And as has been pointed out, it's water under the bridge. There's nothing Randal can do about it now. If he would go on TWiT and do a formal retraction, that would make some people happy, but it would be silly.

It's just not worth all this trouble.

[dann]

This is getting embarrassing. As a Linux and open source software user it makes me cringe to see the kind of fanboy hyperdefensiveness of some in our community. It really makes us look bad. I am pragmatic enough not to get offended by someone wanting something that "just works", but I do get offended by zealots who tell me I am a sellout for not using gNuisance. I am also freely willing to concede that OpenBSD is more secure than Linux, at least out of the box.

On the otherhand, I find these debates some what enlightening. It allows one to challenge his or her own viewpoints and sharpen their opinion; because after all, that is what most of this is; opinion in the end. Sure there are pros and cons to each person choice that have some grounds in fact, but I use Linux over BSD mostly by choice and comfort; but that does not mean the BSD's are any less awesome when compared to Linux.

If you can come away enlightened by any of this, more the better. If it infuriates you too, that is good; because it has you thinking. But on the flip side to that, it can delve into zealotry and that does nobody any good.

Like Pat says, save your complaints for the pencil-dicks on MacBreak Weekly or Paul "Leave Vista Alone!" Thurrott.
Keep up the good work Randall.

I thought Paul was on the "Vista has been getting a bad rap, but is a solid choice" bandwagon these days?

[ken_fallon]

And now, here's the real test. Would it have mattered to you if I had swayed someone away from Linux and towards BSD?

Absolutely not. You are representing the FLOSS community and BSD is firmly in the camp of Free software. As I've said before this is not about being an OS bigot it was about our representative on the TWiT network seeming to letting the side down. Randal has made it very clear that he has not. The fact that a few TWiT listeners may have their views reinforced is probably no big thing.

Now I'd like to get your opinions on how we can further the cause of FLOSS in the mass media in a positive way ?

[RandalSchwartz]

Now I'd like to get your opinions on how we can further the cause of FLOSS in the mass media in a positive way ?

First step - get the guys at LinuxCranks to stop making podcasts until they can grow up.

As part of my research for this confrontation, I've forwarded the "LugRadio dies and Randal Lies" podcast to a few dozen of my friends, and universally, they're saying that these guys are just Linux Fanboys and need to get a sense of the larger picture. I agree. These guys are using profanity to try to express points of view. They're also all hiding behind aliases, which I haven't done since I was 14, so it discounts whatever they have to say to anyone who might matter to me.

Get these guys off the air. They are hurting the cause of Free Software. And I mean that in no uncertain terms. And I'm also not saying that because they "dis" me. I could care less about that. But these guys are doing more to negate their cause than further their cause.

That's the most immediate thing I could see doing.

As for more, help me find interesting guests for FLOSS Weekly. With 30K downloads, FLOSS Weekly is a powerful show. Send me ideas at merlyn@stonehenge.com, and I'll try to get them on. Even better, give me the specific contact name, having already contacted them about being on my show.

[deptrai]

Now I'd like to get your opinions on how we can further the cause of FLOSS in the mass media in a positive way ?

First step - get the guys at LinuxCranks to stop making podcasts until they can grow up.
[...]
These guys are using profanity to try to express points of view. They're also all hiding behind aliases, which I haven't done since I was 14, so it discounts whatever they have to say to anyone who might matter to me.

Get these guys off the air.

Wow, that's pretty extreme! Whatever happened to freedom of speech? Freedom to express one's ideas (with or without profanity)? I haven't heard the program in question, but unless they're inciting genocide, trying to shut them down hardly seems the appropriate reaction. How about voting with one's feet? Personally, if I listen to a program and don't like what I hear, I don't listen again -- but I don't try to forcibly prevent others from listening. So much for promoting freedom, now it's time to start forcing people to be free!

That's the most immediate thing I could see doing.

Could you connect the dots please? I don't see it. How would shutting down a podcast (and, so far as I know, a somewhat obscure one) "further the cause of FLOSS in the mass media"? Is Walt Mossberg a listener?

Finally, somewhat unrelated, I'd like to add that I did hear the unfortunate remark on TWiT, and I hope you can understand that it came out sounding as if you didn't think very highly of Linux; you've more than made clear that any such implication was completely unintentional, but I wish you could acknowledge how someone who just heard the comment without reading the clarifications might come away with that impression (I did), not through any fault on your part, just an unfortunate happenstance of live radio, yet not the fault of the listener either.

[snarkout]

Yeah, I'm afraid I agree - I'm assuming you're partially joking, but suggesting that the best thing to do to promote FOSS would be to kill a podcast is silly and frankly smacks of petty vengeance, regardless of you saying it isn't. Now to be fair, I've never heard the podcast (or heard of it, TBH), so maybe they *are* damaging FOSS and I don't know it, but it seems to me that a few goofballs with obnoxious opinions couldn't do what thousands of belligerent geeks on forums and mailing lists have so far been unable to do. Then again, I've never listened to FLOSS Weekly, either, so maybe you're doing some great good that is being torn apart by a bunch of yahoos, and I wouldn't know it. In any case, if a single podcast is managing to fuck up FOSS adoption, we've got bigger things to worry about than the podcast in question...

[walter_mellon]

I thought Paul was on the "Vista has been getting a bad rap, but is a solid choice" bandwagon these days?

Sorry if my post was unclear; this is exactly what I meant. Paul has worked himself into a state in which there are no informed, legitimate criticisms of Vista, only a "perception" of problems. My point was that this kind of flaming douchebaggery is a much more deserving target of abuse than Randall.

[eddie]

Anti-fud message:

I would like to relate a story that happened to me several years back. This was before vista, Novell owned suse, before firefox and ubuntu was known. At that time I was running suse 8.x on a 1g amd with 256 or 512 meg of ram. I also had a tv card. My step father was in his last days with Alzheimers. His brother came out to visit with him. So he was to stay here for about a week or so. My step uncle is a very inteligent man. He retired as a fighter pilot from the nave and was a stock broker and an avid photographer in his retirement after the military. Anyway, he did not bring his laptop with him. He wanted to use my computer which was in the room we had prepared for him. I had prepared a login for him prior to his coming. Anyway, he asked me to fire my computer so he could use it. He saw that suse was on the machine and he iost it. I got the usual salior's vernacular about not having Microsoft on my computer. He did not want to use it at all. I finally managed to calm him down. I asked him to let me show him about the machine. I demonstrated sun office/openoffice, netscape. the ability to watch tv so he could get his weather reports and several other things. To make a long story shore, I did not get to use my computer till he left. He wanted to know how to get linux for his extra machine at home. I gave him a copy of rh7 to use at home on an old computer. Eventually I found out that he had his grown sons into linux.

[Brotherred]

First of all I have to come right out and tell all that do not know that I am a Christian and I have a bit of mixed feelings here. I have to say that I have not listened to the show. I stayed away for those very reasons. That said I do know that most of the most active people with Linuxcranks are the better part of all my IRC/ GNU-Linux friends. I deeply value the chats on daves channel and other parts of freenode and tllts as well.

Most people that would read this post have some idea of where I stand at least on use of rough language. In fact to lay it flat out I generally do not value technical information that can not be expressed apart from four letter words or worse.

As most know I listen to TLLTS. Most of the time the technical logical fields are almost devoid of Christian content so I admit to making concessions there. That goes more so for our GNU+Linux user submitted content. Raw technical content apart from that talk is in short supply but is there. How ever the communities over lap so much one misses a lot if they do not follow. Such content in a Gospel perspective is almost a pipe dream. Linux for Christians is one bright light in the mess. Jesus Geek is anything but geeky if you ask me. And where is the .ogg?

But back on point I think Ken has lost some perspective. I know this is a narrow thread I walk here. However I have voted with my feet and I guess that works for me. The previous paragraphs are some comment on what I have wanted for a very long time and if you have been to my blog you know that I have not been able what so ever to fill said need.

[Gomer_X]

But back on point I think Ken has lost some perspective. I know this is a narrow thread I walk here. However I have voted with my feet and I guess that works for me. The previous paragraphs are some comment on what I have wanted for a very long time and if you have been to my blog you know that I have not been able what so ever to fill said need.

Forgive me if I missed your point. You might want to look up 1 Corinthians 5:12 when you get a chance.

I don't expect TLLTS (or LugRadio or ...) to represent my values anymore than I expect a Windows podcast to promote Linux. It's a tech show. I expect them to talk about tech. If every podcast was full of people exactly like me, it would be pretty boring. I really like the TLLTS crew, and that's why I listen. I don't judge them for being themselves.

Just my opinion, though.

[rfquerin]

First of all, I cringed a little bit at the playing of clips of Linux bashing from the various Twit broadcasts. While many of those comments pissed me off, what immediately sprung to mind is that we could likely string together 8 full hours of Windows and Mac-bashing comments from the TLLTS shows over the years if we wanted to. It just sounds hypocritical to complain about this.

The guys on TLLTS feel passionate about Linux and open source - as do I. The guys on MacBreak feel passionate about the Mac. IMO that's what's great about podcasts, you can have a show about a niche interest, done by people passionate about the subject. That's what makes them interesting to me.

And that includes LinuxCranks Randal.

The only factor messing up the mix is that the Twit network has a lot more pull with the mainstream (how much pull in the grand scheme of things is arguable) than something like TLLTS. So do we hold them to a higher standard? I'm not so sure. They are passionate users trying to entertain other passionate users with similar interests or sometimes just themselves. I shouldn't expect anything different from them (Twit) than from LinuxCranks should I? I don't pay either of them for their product.

But that's a two-way street. If I as a listener don't like what Leo (or his co-hosts) are saying or doing, I email them, do a blog post about it, or something else - like start a forum post or discussion on my own podcast - which is what Pat has done. Likewise Randal, (if he doesn't like what the LinuxCranks guys are doing) should contact them and ask them to stop, or write a post about them, or whatever.

Saying "we" should get LinuxCranks to stop making podcasts is quite frankly, ridiculous. "We" don't determine what members of our community want to do. Just as there are probably lots of Mac fanboys trashing others with dissimilar interests, I don't call out to Andy Ihnatko to tell 'his guys' to stop it.

So what to do? Make a better product maybe. Leo doesn't have a patent on the mainstream audience capture mechanism... Why isn't there a competitor to Floss Weekly? If the interest is there (and maybe it's not) then there could be a show that is very much like Floss Weekly, but maybe more interesting and aimed more toward the Desktop Linux community for instance.

And don't think the talent isn't there. Audio quality wise, the Linux Outlaws show is the equal of any of the Twit shows IMO. So is (was) Lugradio, so is FreshUbuntu. And there are few more adept at spinning a yarn than Mr. Yates (even though he'll never admit it). I think an interview show every bit as appealing and attractive as Floss weekly is entirely do-able.

Right now, the easiest (and therefore the most popular genre) of linux and floss podcasts seem to be very niche - which, as a linux user, I love btw. But there is room for good mainstream linux podcasts. Not necessarily instructive, like Going Linux for instance, but more promotional, more mainstream aiming.

ps. I've gone through this thread as best I could, but Brotherred, I'm still confused as to why you think Ken Fallon has lost some perspective. Can you explain what you mean?

[rfquerin]

One other quick thing.

Maybe someone should point out to Andy Ihnatko exactly how many of the MacBreak weekly picks are either open-source or based on open-source tools. Just going through the first page or two of the Macbreak weekly picks site: http://www.mbwpicks.com shows that there are lots of them.

A site, podcast or something else that intelligently debunks specific instances of Bullshit about Linux with evidence and examples might be a good thing.

[Brotherred]

But back on point I think Ken has lost some perspective. I know this is a narrow thread I walk here. However I have voted with my feet and I guess that works for me. The previous paragraphs are some comment on what I have wanted for a very long time and if you have been to my blog you know that I have not been able what so ever to fill said need.

Forgive me if I missed your point. You might want to look up 1 Corinthians 5:12 when you get a chance.

I don't expect TLLTS (or LugRadio or ...) to represent my values anymore than I expect a Windows podcast to promote Linux. It's a tech show. I expect them to talk about tech. If every podcast was full of people exactly like me, it would be pretty boring. I really like the TLLTS crew, and that's why I listen. I don't judge them for being themselves.

Just my opinion, though.

To cut to the chase. If technical info is all that were offered apart from content that other wise does not ad value. ie four letter words and other graphic talk in the extreme. Then that is all that I expect to get. How ever it would be a huge blessing for my GNU mind and my Christian soul if I were to find much more at some point in the future.

I in no way expect shows to change format or goals. Forgive me if I said that.