Patrick Norton on Apple

[snarkout]

*Using* linux and *maintaining* linux are two entirely different things. I'm pretty sure most folks know this, but I work at an ISP. I've worked at ISPs for most of my tech career. I started as tech support, and am now a sysadmin/network admin. I have dealt with a *lot* of people over the years and have a good idea of what the public as a whole understands about computers (3+ years of answering phone calls kind of pounds that into you). The number of people who I've talked to who run linux and can make it work is doable on 2 fingers - one is a young kid, and I give him all the credit in the world. He *still* has to call me and ask me for help occasionally. And he runs SUSE, FWIW.

I firmly believe that most people out there can *use* linux - IF it is setup and maintained for them. I simply do not believe that even a modestly technically savvy person can buy a machine, install linux wit zero support beyond mailing lists and forums, and have a good user experience. If you disagree, I invite you to look on even the ubuntu fora and see how many pissed off people are there either fuming or ditching linux because one thing or another simply doesn't work like they wanted it to.

Yes, I use arch, and I absolutely love the control it gives me. I also use ubuntu, and maintain several Redhat servers. Beyond that I have installed at least 20 different distros, and used many of them for long periods of time. I think that I have a good grasp on what linux can offer people. I love linux, I am amazed by it daily, and I do not think it's ready for general consumption by todays consumer unless they are ready to put a lot of effort into it.

[hellonorman]

Nah not worth it.

[Jza]

I think that's the problem. You need to do research every time you wanna buy a device for Linux. Not everyone has someone like you who can inform them on which devices work under Linux, and which ones don't. People don't want to waste their time looking up printer model numbers on Google to find out if they'll work or not. If you're running Windows, you buy the device, slap in the driver disc that comes with the package, and you're good to go.

Well don't you need the same thing for OSX, OSX doesnt support all the hardware in the planet. Try to get a infrared scanner working on mac, or a wifi card in the mac and u will find issues, yet your response will be simple. This doesnt run on the mac, go and change it.

Same thing is with linux... what I have seen is that you keep rambling on the same topics. You really need to realized that this is exactly what marketing is for, Win95 suck, yet everyone was spending time telling you what you can do DO wtih win95.

Same thing with Vista right now, Vista might suck in security, networking, usability... we don´t know. But what is true is that more people are spending time talking about the GUI and microsoft is pushing that with campaings.

Linux doesnt have that, however, I dont see many people talking about the great things you CAN do with linux. Your moans about hardware incompatibily were heard in 1998, why you keep pounding on them?

Computer n00bs dont usually spend much money in hardware, they are still too busy discovering what they can do right now.

Computer n00bs usually don't install OSes, partitioning, heck they never touch the control panel.

If you got a linux n00b you just go through the same drill, get him to get a Linux PC. There are many providers out there, starting with cheap ones like Koobox. So they get it then unpack it, they plug it in, and they turn it on and there it is, no installation...

Now what, well now the first thing they might do is play games, yes not a 3D high resolution game, they want to play solitare, tetris and all that stuff wich linux haves all over the place. We are not lacking on games -- definition of games is a bit fucked up. I have played games in Linux for ages and still havent got tired of them.

So what you can do with linux, well you can start with virtual desktops, the concept is simple. You have a world time atomic clock, you have applications for almost everything under the sun.

So by the time the newbie gets around playing with all the programs, he will have kids.

Just like many windows users who have discover knoppix, they dont really spend much time looking into the apps. You might be surprised what they can get hooked on.

Saying that linux has no support is completely wrong, now you have TONZ of magazines out there, Linux-Magazine, Linux Format, Linux Journal, TUX Magazine, most of them (not all) will focus on desktop users which is great and will have DVD-CD with apps for linux.

So you can't install a program, well yes tough, but how many programs you CAN install painlessly:
- Opera
- Skype
- Firefox
- Democracy

So yes, even if your expectations are not the ones of a Windows user, it is well above a Computer user. So really there is realy no apologies here. Linux is great and you should use it, no it wont be windows, but that doesnt mean its hard.

Actually Windows and OSX and KDE is hard for a newbie, it takes a while for them to understand the concept of windows, and that one window is above the other one, and remembering which programs goes to what.

With linux at least you can just remember the name of it, type it to the Run commnd and you will get it.

If the internet websites were in icons, you might easily get lost, yes a name is easier to remember than an icon.

I think you really need to listen to Marcel Gagne, he gets it, is not about spending your life pointing out the Linux querks, all OSes got them and most newbies doesnt care really. Is about spending time, telling what kind of things you can actually do with linux.

[Judland]

Linux doesnt have that, however, I dont see many people talking about the great things you CAN do with linux. Your moans about hardware incompatibily were heard in 1998, why you keep pounding on them?

That's exactly what I meant by "not apologizing for Linux anymore". Bravo.

[hellonorman]

Jza thanks for the thoughtful contribution.

Please remember that this started as reasons why Leo Laporte doesn't advocate linux to more noobs on his KFI show.

Bringing up obscure examples like infrared scanners doesn't cut it. How about a mainstream example. Buy a laptop from Dell or Gateway and all the sudden getting linux on it and all the hardware working and maintaining it becomes an ordeal that most users aren't willing to endure. Let alone the type of user that calls KFI.

While things may be different if linux came preinstalled on machines the reality is that it doesn't. I encourage anyone, even Judland, to work toward changing that situation. But crying and getting angry about Leo not advocating linux in this situation doesn't accomplish that goal.

People aren't talking about the usability of KDE or Gnome and whether a user can figure out how to open a file manager or browser.

By all means tell people what linux can do. But the fact is that too many mainstream things are behind the other OS's. Flash sites, drivers, ease of setting up and maintaining hardware and software. Again the reasons might be unfair but they are there anyway. That's why someone like Leo wouldn't be recommending it the his callers to KFI.

Not that this proves everything but I have tried to get 3 friends of mine to use Ubuntu in the last 6 months. One looked at me like I was nuts when he went to ESPN and it wouldn't play flash 8 video. Another looked at me like I was nuts when he couldn't connect to his WPA encrypted router. The other used it for a little bit until one day he couldn't get into X because of the infamous update.

My point is that I did tell them all the cool things about linux and what it can do and how safe it was. But these areas where linux is always behind are deal breakers to the majority of people.

[Tsuroerusu]

Not that this proves everything but I have tried to get 3 friends of mine to use Ubuntu in the last 6 months. One looked at me like I was nuts when he went to ESPN and it wouldn't play flash 8 video. Another looked at me like I was nuts when he couldn't connect to his WPA encrypted router. The other used it for a little bit until one day he couldn't get into X because of the infamous update.

Did the thought of there being over 499 other Linux distros, that you could try and give to your friends, out there in the wild?

[Jza]

So what are the Linux positives:
- Free Support
- Free software upgrades
- Free desktop publishing software
- Free Photo managing program
- Secure web experience
- Free Office program
- Portability in 1CD

Now people might not want to be in google and forums, but nowadays we got:







So you get a computer n00b:
- get a linux PC
- get a book
- listen to this podcast

After 1 week ask him how it went.

[jsusanka]

Linux is for noobs - it is ready today - I have converted about 10 family/friends in the past year and all them have kept linux and are happy to this day.

when they have trouble and need my help I can ssh tunnel to their boxes and help. not a big deal - could never do that with windows. ssh doesn't even come with it.


as far as applciations I can make movies listen to music and watch movies if I want with linux all at the same time and still have xgl . I also can use four different hardware platforms and have the same interface on those platforms using linux - can't be done with windows.

I have had no trouble with linux and wireless - all the centrino laptops that I have installed linux worked out of box with wpa and all encryption types - never had to use the command line.

anybody who thinks linux isn't ready for the desktop has got to stop shopping at the local compusa and walgreens and start buying some quality hardware. those people at those store would sell their own grandmas.

what it comes down to for me is trust - am I going to trust the crap drivers I get with the hardware and the os that it runs on without auditing the code if I see fit. I don't think so. My computer is personal and MY computer - If I can't audit the code when I want to then I don't want any part of it. I explain that to people and they have that get-it look on their face afterwards. - that is the freedom that is associated with linux and that is what I explain to them when they ask me about linux - not price. and with stuff like Sarbannes-Oxley etc this is becoming even more important.

my daughter has an Imac I picked up for her a while back and I bought a usb wireless thumb network card for it and it worked perfectly with linux. doesn't even work with the OS that come with - which is 9.x - of course I have to upgrade to osx -

and when my daughter plays those the two educational games that we ran to the drugstore to buy and just "plug in and play" - well they constantly lock up the mac os and it is what they were designed for -

when we boot into linux she plays kstars , khangman, gcompris, kpaint, and others and the thing never locks up - ever! so thank you linux for giving the choice of not having to buy osx just to make the computer work. try that with windows.

the gimp rocks!

[jsusanka]

I think TWIT sucks and I really don't listen to it anymore - the sad part is that the new user listens to them and thinks they are the experts. which couldn't be farther from the truth.

[Judland]

While things may be different if linux came preinstalled on machines the reality is that it doesn't. I encourage anyone, even Judland, to work toward changing that situation.

Haven't you been reading? It's not me you have to convince to support the effort. I'm not the one buying Mac laptops and telling people to "just use Microsoft because it's easier."

[hellonorman]

While things may be different if linux came preinstalled on machines the reality is that it doesn't. I encourage anyone, even Judland, to work toward changing that situation.

Haven't you been reading? It's not me you have to convince to support the effort. I'm not the one buying Mac laptops and telling people to "just use Microsoft because it's easier."

Have you ever responded to the actual point somone else made? The point was that whining about Leo doesn't help the cause. Do you get the point now?

[Jza]

Jza thanks for the thoughtful contribution.

Please remember that this started as reasons why Leo Laporte doesn't advocate linux to more noobs on his KFI show.

Well which show are you talking about? If you talk about KFI, then Leo actually recomends linux. His official position is that he will take the show whenever the listeners take it, and they listen to windows questions.

Yes Leo promotes the mac, but up till now I havent seen really that many linux users to participate on that show or call in.

So I will hold my judgment until I see 5 linux people calling during tomorrow show (or any other show) and actually gets his real reaction. The Chat of KFI is full of linux questions, and windows users ready to switch.

Also there are a lot of linux questions but you can read them by yourself here is today's chat log:
The KFI Sept 30th
If you do a linux count , it was mentioned was around 60 and most of the questions were about people being curious to linux and also giving good feedback such as

'Linux is fast',
'how to install stuff in ubuntu',
'how to dual boot',
'which books do you recomend'

and on the live show a guy called asking about how friendly is Ubuntu toward wi-fi's. He also went on talking about Ubuntu as its really friendly and is more secure than windows. however overally Linux gets mentioned at least 2.5 times every show. If there was more linux people calling in (remember is not only questions), you can actually make KFI show become a Linux Show.

[Judland]

The point was that whining about Leo doesn't help the cause. Do you get the point now?

Yes, I do get your point. But I take it from your "tone" that you also don't want people to discuss the situation either? It's funny how my opinion of Leo is whining, while your opinion on Linux's lack of hardware support isn't.

I had a lot more to "say", but I'll keep the conversation more "general".

[hellonorman]

Jza thanks for the thoughtful contribution.

Please remember that this started as reasons why Leo Laporte doesn't advocate linux to more noobs on his KFI show.

Well which show are you talking about? If you talk about KFI, then Leo actually recomends linux. His official position is that he will take the show whenever the listeners take it, and they listen to windows questions.

Yes Leo promotes the mac, but up till now I havent seen really that many linux users to participate on that show or call in.

So I will hold my judgment until I see 5 linux people calling during tomorrow show (or any other show) and actually gets his real reaction. The Chat of KFI is full of linux questions, and windows users ready to switch.

Also there are a lot of linux questions but you can read them by yourself here is today's chat log:
The KFI Sept 30th
If you do a linux count , it was mentioned was around 60 and most of the questions were about people being curious to linux and also giving good feedback such as

'Linux is fast',
'how to install stuff in ubuntu',
'how to dual boot',
'which books do you recomend'

and on the live show a guy called asking about how friendly is Ubuntu toward wi-fi's. He also went on talking about Ubuntu as its really friendly and is more secure than windows. however overally Linux gets mentioned at least 2.5 times every show. If there was more linux people calling in (remember is not only questions), you can actually make KFI show become a Linux Show.

You will have to ask the two fanboi's they are the ones whining, crying and fuding about his comments on the show. I've never heard him actively diss linux but he doesn't actively recommend it over mac either. I was willing to take the fanboi's at there word that he said the things that they claimed he said. Could it be that the fanboi's were just utterly and completely full of shit?

[Judland]

You will have to ask the two fanboi's they are the ones whining, crying and fuding about his comments on the show. I've never heard him actively diss linux but he doesn't actively recommend it over mac either. I was willing to take the fanboi's at there word that he said the things that they claimed he said. Could it be that the fanboi's were just utterly and completely full of shat?

The childish name calling is fine with me, but I'd appreciate it if you would only comment on things that have happened, rather than making up exaggerations of my actions and/or comments just to prove a point of yours.

I've also posted a few questions in this thread, which seemed to be conveniently side-stepped or ignored, with no attempt at a response. Funny, that.