ESR Changing Tune a little??

[gorkon]

I listened to the new LUGRadio today and they had ESR on it. I happen to totally agree with him. Zealotry will KILL Linux. Zealotry that prevents people from getting MP3 support working easily or from getting Firefox in Debian instead of Ice Weasel. I LIKE his idea of throwing a few bucks at SuSE, Ubuntu or who ever and then them supporting a nice easy way of getting all of the codecs working. That will work for Mom and Dad. For us, we'll go get the code like we always have. It's a Win/Win in my book.

Does that mean we don't need OGG? No. OGG and Theora should still be pushed, but support people through their transition to OGG and also allow them to get to the content they want to hear.

We all know of the patent issues with MP3, but the fact is it would cost us alot of time and possibly money to convert the existing data we have. Hey I thought of something....maybe one of the OGG supporting companies should offer a service of ripping/converting your CD to OGG? I know, someone will say the RIAA....FUCK the RIAA....this is fair use.

Anyway, that's how I feel. Let's hear what you think.

[Patrick]

I agree that zealotry is a bad thing. ESR has actually been one of the more moderate people in the F/OSS world. In fact I think he coined the term Open Source in "The Cathedral & The Bazaar". I think moderates tend to favor the term open source. Some of the Free software people tend to look down on it for not being "pure".

[Tsuroerusu]

I listened to the new LUGRadio today and they had ESR on it. I happen to totally agree with him. Zealotry will KILL Linux. Zealotry that prevents people from getting MP3 support working easily or from getting Firefox in Debian instead of Ice Weasel. I LIKE his idea of throwing a few bucks at SuSE, Ubuntu or who ever and then them supporting a nice easy way of getting all of the codecs working. That will work for Mom and Dad. For us, we'll go get the code like we always have. It's a Win/Win in my book.

Does that mean we don't need OGG? No. OGG and Theora should still be pushed, but support people through their transition to OGG and also allow them to get to the content they want to hear.

We all know of the patent issues with MP3, but the fact is it would cost us alot of time and possibly money to convert the existing data we have. Hey I thought of something....maybe one of the OGG supporting companies should offer a service of ripping/converting your CD to OGG? I know, someone will say the RIAA....jingle jangle all around the RIAA....this is fair use.

Anyway, that's how I feel. Let's hear what you think.

Novell is already providing MP3 playback out of the box in SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 and once Real releases the new version of RealPlayer that supports Windows Media it will be available as well.
So in SLED 10 you've got legal MP3 support, WMA/WMV, OGG Vorbis/Theora, and maybe AAC I don't remember if that is in there.

If you use the DVD to install SUSE Linux 10.1 you will get some non-free stuff (Including RealPlayer) without user intervention, or tell the installer, when installing from CDs, to include "add-on products" from "seperate media" also known as the non-oss disc (CD6).
This installs RealPlayer and sets Amarok (KDE) or Banshee (GNOME) up to use it's Helix framework to play stuff, and that provides legal MP3 playback out of the box.

I think in openSUSE 10.2 this will only be applicable to Banshee in GNOME because the SUSE developers have concluded that making Amarok, a GPLed program, use a proprietary framework (Helix in itself is not proprietary, but in this case it's available in a proprietary program) for playback is a GPL violation.
Personally I don't think it is because you're not "linking" any free software against any non-free software as far as I know, you just using a feature of Amarok that utilizes some non-free software.

As far as Debian forking Firefox, Thunderbird and the Mozilla Suite, my opinion on this is this. I think it's really good to have a distribution that people can just modify to their heart's content and not have to worry about trademarks other than the distribution's own, hopefully obvious, trademarks. Debian has always been this kind of distribution, it's only as they have added the "non-free" repository that they are no longer recommended by the FSF, because the FSF feels that in this way they promote non-free software, albeit in a small context.

Debian has never really been something your average Joe user would or could use, as it's not really that user friendly, try telling mr. Joe about apt-get and sources.list
Because of this, I don't really have a problem with what Debian is doing, in fact I think it's a good thing for Debian per se, because of it's long standing ideals and goals.
Linc has referred to this as being "picky about what software you can install", but I see it more as just having some ideals that you stand by, while it may be inconvienient to some people.

Having said this, I think it's not a good idea to replace Firefox with IceWeasel in a distro such as Mandriva, SUSE, Fedora or Ubuntu, as they pretty much all try to cater to new users (Fedora seems to have this prioritized slightly lower than the rest have) and new users will be left confused about where the browser is.

If I don't like the way a distribution does something, I just don't use that distribution, it's as simple as that really. A good example of me personally, is Ubuntu. It doesn't have any management tools (Bootloader configuration, Firewall configuration, NFS configuration ...) in addition to GNOME's own tools, the big one being X.Org configuration. Because of this, whenever I try Ubuntu I feel somewhat limited in terms of what I can do, because I don't like editing configuration files unless I have to. This is one of several reasons why I don't use Ubuntu, and if you don't like what Debian does, you could either just use Ubuntu, install Firefox manually, use IceWeasel or just use a different distribution.

One of the reasons I really like OpenBSD is that I don't have to worry about locking down the system besides using good passwords and that very obvious stuff. Apache is run chrooted out of the box, and the overall system is locked down by default. In FreeBSD I have to remember all that before I port forward port 80 on my router so there's public access to a web server I may be running.

[dann]

A good example of me personally, is Ubuntu. It doesn't have any management tools (Bootloader configuration, Firewall configuration, NFS configuration ...) in addition to GNOME's own tools, the big one being X.Org configuration. Because of this, whenever I try Ubuntu I feel somewhat limited in terms of what I can do, because I don't like editing configuration files unless I have to.

Hah, now there is your problem. All you need is a shell and vi[m] and you have at yoru fingertips the ultimate managment tool! Problem with X.org? Simple, vi /etc/X11/xorg.conf and in a few short edits all is fixed!

[gorkon]

A good example of me personally, is Ubuntu. It doesn't have any management tools (Bootloader configuration, Firewall configuration, NFS configuration ...) in addition to GNOME's own tools, the big one being X.Org configuration. Because of this, whenever I try Ubuntu I feel somewhat limited in terms of what I can do, because I don't like editing configuration files unless I have to.

Hah, now there is your problem. All you need is a shell and vi[m] and you have at yoru fingertips the ultimate managment tool! Problem with X.org? Simple, vi /etc/X11/xorg.conf and in a few short edits all is fixed!

Yeah sure.....keep telling yourself that!

[Tsuroerusu]

A good example of me personally, is Ubuntu. It doesn't have any management tools (Bootloader configuration, Firewall configuration, NFS configuration ...) in addition to GNOME's own tools, the big one being X.Org configuration. Because of this, whenever I try Ubuntu I feel somewhat limited in terms of what I can do, because I don't like editing configuration files unless I have to.

Hah, now there is your problem. All you need is a shell and vi[m] and you have at yoru fingertips the ultimate managment tool! Problem with X.org? Simple, vi /etc/X11/xorg.conf and in a few short edits all is fixed!

Well, that's what I hear from all the Ubuntu fanboys as well, but try getting a Windows user who is trying out Linux for the first time to type: vi /etc/X11/xorg.conf
To get their monitor refresh rate correct, that just makes no sense at all!
Especially when the new user have no idea what he needs to set the HorizSync and VertRefresh parameters to.

Either you cater to new users or you don't!!

Every single time I have tried installing Ubuntu on my machine, it has not set my, over three years old, monitor up correctly (The model is over four years old). Every time it's not been set to the right refresh rate.

Every single time I have installed Mandriva, Fedora or SUSE, no single problem at all.

If I don't wanna edit configuration files, I should not have to on a Linux distro that tries to cater to new users. And YES I am an experienced user, and I do know how to configure crap myself, but I don't want to, unless I have to, because it takes time and is sometimes an annoyance for me. There's just no excuse in my opinion.

Sure, SUSE's package manager is not perfect, yet, but it works now, albeit slowly.

[mowestusa]

To get their monitor refresh rate correct, that just makes no sense at all!
Especially when the new user have no idea what he needs to set the HorizSync and VertRefresh parameters to.

Either you cater to new users or you don't!!

Every single time I have tried installing Ubuntu on my machine, it has not set my, over three years old, monitor up correctly (The model is over four years old). Every time it's not been set to the right refresh rate.

Every single time I have installed Mandriva, Fedora or SUSE, no single problem at all.

T,
You make a good point here that my experience also backs up. I have a beauty of a 17" monitor that never gets configured correctly, probably because it is an off brand. Ubuntu always does the worse job with this for some reason.

However, I do run Ubuntu, because of EasyUbuntu, and a 1 CD install.

[Wally Balljacker]

I agree with Eric for the most part, although I think he's willing to compromise a little too much. Linux will take over the desktop market when it's ready, on it's own terms, and I don't think accepting non-free technologies will get us that far in the long run.

[Tsuroerusu]

To get their monitor refresh rate correct, that just makes no sense at all!
Especially when the new user have no idea what he needs to set the HorizSync and VertRefresh parameters to.

Either you cater to new users or you don't!!

Every single time I have tried installing Ubuntu on my machine, it has not set my, over three years old, monitor up correctly (The model is over four years old). Every time it's not been set to the right refresh rate.

Every single time I have installed Mandriva, Fedora or SUSE, no single problem at all.

T,
You make a good point here that my experience also backs up. I have a beauty of a 17" monitor that never gets configured correctly, probably because it is an off brand. Ubuntu always does the worse job with this for some reason.

However, I do run Ubuntu, because of EasyUbuntu, and a 1 CD install.

Dude, if you have a PayPal account, send me the email adress for it and I'll send ya a few bucks if you mind trying out SUSE 10.1 Remastered, because I'd like to know if it sets your monitor up correct, right out of the box.

[Gomer_X]

I listened to the new LUGRadio today and they had ESR on it. I happen to totally agree with him.

How exactly is this changing his tune?

He's always promoted a more pragmatic approach in opposition to RMS's idealism and zealotry.

This isn't in any way out of line with everything I've ever read from ESR.

[snarkout]

Well, he didn't berate anyone with vague, veiled threats or promises of graveyard piss, and it's not a quasi-religious rant, so it's a little out of line with some of his recent stuff.

[Jza]

So Linspire was always right. Linux should be a product and should make money and should pay marketing campaings, push Linux desktops to wallmart and be on every desktop out there.