Stumped with a network issue

[Anonymous]

For the past few days now, I have been scratching my head trying to figure out what is up with this network issue that has just come up, and of course it would happen to be my primary machine that I run MicroCrash Windoze on, go figure. If it wasn't for some of the things that I use, I would have nothing to do with having a windows machine at all and after this has happened, I think it's time to put more emphasis on moving everything I do to linux. Anyway, here's the thing, it all started after I just updated the drivers for the video card, I tried to access another machine thru the network, I could see it within the group but it just wouldn't connect and so I tried it the other way from the other machine and had the same results. I have had this issue before so I figured that a reboot should fix it and that's where things went from bad to worse, this is when I noticed that I couldn't get a response by pinging the other machines or even get out side to the web. Here's the kicker, it does get an ip address from the router and I know this by calling up ipconfig and seeing the data so I started researching this in many ways, one was I checked the event log to see what it might tell me and sure enough, there was a nice little clue, something about dhcpnack so I looked into that. What I came across on info for that is that the router might be bad, well for me I don't think that's the case since I have several machines that can be assigned an ip address and function fine on the network so that rules that out. Another suggestion was to make it a static address so I tried that and that didn't work either. Now here's the funny part, I put in a live cd of the latest Ubuntu and run that and what do you know, it too gets an ip address for the nic and better yet, I'm able to use the network tools and get responses and get out on the web as well. At this point, I know that everything is good while running ubuntu so I figure that maybe xp pro is the problem and that something is corrupted so I install a different drive and install a different version of xp in hopes that it's the problem. Nope, other than having a different drive and a fresh install of xp 64bit, it's doing the same thing and so this is why I am stumped. One last thing that I made note of was the mac address as well, to my understanding, it's supposed to be a fixed address with the first three sets representing the manufacturer and the last three sets to be whatever, well the mac address that is reported under windows is 01:23:45:67:89:ab and under linux the first three remain constant with 00:00:6c while the last three change every time I run the live cd. I find it somewhat odd that the mac address comes back that way under windows and that it's totally different under linux. Everything I can possibly think of doing I have done. Any thoughts - hints - clues as to what or why this is functioning like this?

I'm baffled

Thanks,
Christopher Bingman

[Gomer_X]

Any thoughts - hints - clues as to what or why this is functioning like this?

You're running Windows. There's your problem. Put in the Live CD and once it boots, look for the install option. When it asks if you want to wipe your existing partitions and use the whole drive for Linux, say yes. I'm not sure why you would ask in a Linux forum why Windows doesn't work.

Seriously, I've seen an onboard NIC come up with different MAC addresses on a dual boot machine. Don't know what to do because I'm not really familiar with networking in Windows. I configured it years ago and haven't touched it since.

Possibly the router is assigning IP addresses by MAC, and you've got it set to recognize one MAC and not the other. That's the way my setup works. I have the router assign static IPs by MAC address and no one can get on my network unless I've specifically assigned them an IP.

[dann]

First, what live distro are you running. You can easily change the mac address under Linux, but this does not write to the device. So if your live cd is changing the mac address on the fly this could be why you are seeing different results.

Second, you never mentioned whether you checked the Windows firewall settings. It is possibly they are set to block everything. I'm not familar with XP 64 bit, so I don't know the default fw settings.

Also, is your card fully supported under XP 64bit?

[Anonymous]

Hey Gomer_X, this is true, this is a linux forum but my question is of a technical issue and a mysterious one at that so I figured with that being said, it shouldn't matter what the OS is for this question. Also you are correct about having the router configured by use of MAC addresses only, that is a feature for wireless and I have that enabled as well, ethernet is pretty basic, either it's connected or not. As for mentioning the MAC address, it's pretty much permanent and can't be changed but the first three sets reference the manufacturer and as for the last three always changing, I had a theory about that but it wasn't what I had thought.


Dann - I tried it with the latest Ubuntu 6.10 (32 bit) and Dyne 2.2 (32 bit) and I'm able to get onto the net with no problems as well as get responses from the other machines with the basic network tools. I have Ubuntu 64 bit server but that has to be installed so I'm downloading the 64 bit desktop of Ubuntu to test. As for the windows firewall question, by default it doesn't block the access and I was running XP pro for the past few years without any problems until I did a driver update back on the 23rd / 24th and that is when this all started. That is why I took a different drive and a different version of microcrash to see if the problem would be gone since linux has no problems working. So much for Ballmer trying to paint the image of M$ being golden and that linux in nothing but second best if that. The machine is a 64 bit and I have had XP 64 running once before with no problems and in fact, I have another machine that is identical to this one with the exception of the graphics card to where I could install xp64 on it and see how it reacts. The only other thing that I can think of doing is a firmware update to the router itself and see what happens. As for my other machine that is identical to this one, I'm working on setting it up as my linux server and I can't think of any better time to completing it than now. Just not sure which flavor of linux I want to go with, had thought about putting Ubuntu on it but not too sure if I like the whole sudo command line thing as the administrator. Any thoughts about that? I'll take suggestions on what to possibly load and I had messed with SuSe / openSuSe too as well as a few others.


XP 64 Update:
After installing it on the other identical machine, at first it was acting like the primary but after further investigation, xp 64 locks down the network unlike xp/xp pro is open by default, so after changing a few settings it was communicating on the network and it can get out to the net as well so figuring that is all I should have to do with the first machine it should work the same. Nope.
I made the same changes and I even turned the firewall off and and it still won't play. Like I said, I can run a linux live cd on this machine and it functions like it should.


MAC addresses:
As I initially suspected, xp is misinterpreting the MAC address for some unknown reason and that a MAC address of 01:23:45:67:89:ab is invalid and how to correct this problem is the next question but here's a good site in case you'd like to know who the vendor is for any of your network gear via the MAC address. http://www.coffer.com/mac_find/



Last update:
After further research on this issue, I have found an answer to fixing the problem although in some ways it really doesn't fully explain what the real cause was nor why I should even have to go about this way in correcting the problem. Perseverance has paid off.

[Gomer_X]

As for mentioning the MAC address, it's pretty much permanent and can't be changed but the first three sets reference the manufacturer and as for the last three always changing, I had a theory about that but it wasn't what I had thought.

A MAC address theoretically shouldn't change at all. It's purpose is to uniquely and permanently identify a card. These days you can spoof a MAC address in software, but it's kind of a grey area ethically. There are good reasons to do it, though.

The fact that your live CD is changing the MAC and Windows is not is odd. It could be another Ubuntu "security" feature, though. It would be interesting to know what hardware you're running (motherboard/chipset specifically). My nForce 2 based motherboard reported 2 different MACs based on which OS I booted, but that went away after a BIOS upgrade.

Last update:
After further research on this issue, I have found an answer to fixing the problem although in some ways it really doesn't fully explain what the real cause was nor why I should even have to go about this way in correcting the problem. Perseverance has paid off.

Could you share your solution with us? That way other people might benefit and not have to go through the same trouble.

[chuck]

Hey Gomer_X, this is true, this is a linux forum but my question is of a technical issue and a mysterious one at that so I figured with that being said, it shouldn't matter what the OS is for this question.

Yes, it's a internet show primarily about Linux, but broadly about OpenSource, forum. And a mysterious technical issue about Windows, a closed source system, fits right in.

Last update:
After further research on this issue, I have found an answer to fixing the problem although in some ways it really doesn't fully explain what the real cause was nor why I should even have to go about this way in correcting the problem. Perseverance has paid off.

And this last paragraph highlights the issues of closed source. We know that it's working now but still have no idea how it happened. So the solution is only good for you and denied to everyone else that you imposed your problems on.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it's a internet show primarily about Linux, but broadly about OpenSource, forum. And a mysterious technical issue about Windows, a closed source system, fits right in.

And this last paragraph highlights the issues of closed source. We know that it's working now but still have no idea how it happened. So the solution is only good for you and denied to everyone else that you imposed your problems on.

I am well aware of the fact that this is a show dedicated to the Linux / OpenSource community, I have been listening to them for quite some time and in fact, I donated them some $$ to help them with their trip to the Ohio Linuxfest. I just figured that there might be some tech savvy people like myself within the community here, the kind of people that aren't just satisfied with a quick solution but someone who likes to dig in and really get to the bottom of the problem. Quick fixes and band-aid patches don't satisfy me much at all but there are those times when you don't have much of a choice but to use them just because. Guess I was hoping that someone else might have ran across something like or similar who could possibly shed some insight on it as well. As I had explained, it was of a technical issue, one that affects every operating system that is in use and the problem was directed towards the MAC address and not windows per say. I know there are many who despise windows but still probably have to use it perhaps because of their job and those were the ones that I was hoping to get some response from, not the ones who apparently seem to know very little or much of nothing but who like to just bash people for asking such a question on a board like this. Thought this was a community of knowledgeable people where something like this could be asked with prejudice set aside, perhaps I was wrong.

A MAC address theoretically shouldn't change at all. It's purpose is to uniquely and permanently identify a card. These days you can spoof a MAC address in software, but it's kind of a grey area ethically. There are good reasons to do it, though.

The fact that your live CD is changing the MAC and Windows is not is odd. It could be another Ubuntu "security" feature, though. It would be interesting to know what hardware you're running (motherboard/chipset specifically). My nForce 2 based motherboard reported 2 different MACs based on which OS I booted, but that went away after a BIOS upgrade.

When I posted my problem / question for all to read, I thought I was very clear and precise on what I said or how I was describing / eplaining things but by some of the responses, I feel that either they clearly didn't read it or perhaps misunderstood what this was all about. If I'm not mistaken, I never said that any of the linux live cd's were changing the MAC address at all but in fact if anything, it's linux that IS coming up with the correct MAC address and I'm able to access the web and the other machines that are also connected. Like I also stated, I have two identical machines, asus SK8N motherboards with the amd 64 bit FX-51 processor, 2G memory in each with the differences in the video cards and that for some strange reason when I install windows xp on each, the one machine has no problems with the MAC address and I have full functionality and as for the other, it used to be like that as well.

Could you share your solution with us? That way other people might benefit and not have to go through the same trouble.

Since this whole problem was of the MAC address, I focused more on that rather than windows or linux and found answers here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address

This was the solution I went with under the Changing Addresses section.

Under Windows XP, the MAC address can be changed in the Ethernet adapter's Properties menu, in the Advanced tab, as "MAC Address", "Locally Administered Address", "Ethernet Address", "Physical Address" or "Network Address". The exact name depends on the Ethernet driver used; not all drivers support changing the MAC address in this way.

Since that was an option for me, I was able to plug in one of the valid addresses that I wrote down while linux was running and it replaced the bogus address of 01:23:45:67:89:AB and all was operational after that but the point is /was that in the beginning, I never had to alter the MAC address in any way under windows in order for things to work properly and it was because of popping in a linux cd that brought this whole thing to light.

[Gomer_X]

When I posted my problem / question for all to read, I thought I was very clear and precise on what I said or how I was describing / eplaining things but by some of the responses, I feel that either they clearly didn't read it or perhaps misunderstood what this was all about.

Since you brought it up, posting one LONG paragraph with very little punctuation is not "clear and precise." Asking good questions is an art, though. It's a lot harder to post a short paragraph than a long one.

If I'm not mistaken, I never said that any of the linux live cd's were changing the MAC address at all...

Here's what you said:

... well the mac address that is reported under windows is 01:23:45:67:89:ab and under linux the first three remain constant with 00:00:6c while the last three change every time I run the live cd.

If the "last three change every time I run the live cd", that makes me think the live CD is changing the MAC address. There is ONLY ONE MAC for a given card, and it should not change. Forgive me if I misunderstand.

Like I also stated, I have two identical machines, asus SK8N motherboards with the amd 64 bit FX-51 processor, 2G memory in each...

I searched this thread and don't find this info anywhere. Again, forgive me if I missed it.

Since that was an option for me, I was able to plug in one of the valid addresses that I wrote down while linux was running and it replaced the bogus address of 01:23:45:67:89:AB and all was operational after...

I'd call this a workaround rather than a solution. It's still a mystery to me why you'd need to manually enter a MAC address. This should be reported to the OS by the card, and shouldn't need to be entered. I'd still look at flashing the BIOS and make sure the battery on the motherboard isn't bad.

Obviously 01:23:45:67:89:AB is a made-up address, so something in the hardware is lying to you or not reporting anything. Windows and Linux are dealing with this situation in different ways. The live CD was just smart enough to make up a valid address.

[Anonymous]

Since you brought it up, posting one LONG paragraph with very little punctuation is not "clear and precise." Asking good questions is an art, though. It's a lot harder to post a short paragraph than a long one. Very Happy

I will admit that the initial post seems to be one long paragraph, I'll be sure to use college rule line spacing next time, just for you.

As for the punctuation, well if you can't seem to pause while reading it at the appropriate places where punctuation was used, then that's not my problem. Hell, I have seen people post where there was no punctuation used at all, so go figure.

Here's what you said:

... well the mac address that is reported under windows is 01:23:45:67:89:ab and under linux the first three remain constant with 00:00:6c while the last three change every time I run the live cd.

If the "last three change every time I run the live cd", that makes me think the live CD is changing the MAC address. There is ONLY ONE MAC for a given card, and it should not change. Forgive me if I misunderstand.

True, I did say that but it's the first three sets of numbers, the first six numbers (which are of the base 16 since a - f is used as well), for those that need the extra help in understanding this, that are... here's the key point now... Constant, which don't change and are used to identify who the manufacturer is and as for the last 3 sets of numbers changing, like I also mentioned, I had a theory about that but it was inconclusive.

Like I also stated, I have two identical machines, asus SK8N motherboards with the amd 64 bit FX-51 processor, 2G memory in each...

I searched this thread and don't find this info anywhere. Again, forgive me if I missed it.

I added that info because I had mentioned that I have two identical machines so I was being specific to what it is and sharing it with others so it wasn't something you or anyone else had missed.

Since that was an option for me, I was able to plug in one of the valid addresses that I wrote down while linux was running and it replaced the bogus address of 01:23:45:67:89:AB and all was operational after...

I'd call this a workaround rather than a solution. It's still a mystery to me why you'd need to manually enter a MAC address. This should be reported to the OS by the card, and shouldn't need to be entered. I'd still look at flashing the BIOS and make sure the battery on the motherboard isn't bad.

Obviously 01:23:45:67:89:AB is a made-up address, so something in the hardware is lying to you or not reporting anything. Windows and Linux are dealing with this situation in different ways. The live CD was just smart enough to make up a valid address.

Here's what I had said on my last post:
"I just figured that there might be some tech savvy people like myself within the community here, the kind of people that aren't just satisfied with a quick solution but someone who likes to dig in and really get to the bottom of the problem. Quick fixes and band-aid patches don't satisfy me much at all but there are those times when you don't have much of a choice but to use them just because."

YES.. I agree with this being a work around rather than a solution as well and it's what I have been addressing from the git-go about it being the mystery and how linux and windows are getting different data. I never have had to manually change the MAC address in order for any machine to communicate. At this point, it hasn't fully corrected the problem but at least I'm able to get on the web with it but I'd still like to know what's the real deal with it as well.

[Gomer_X]

I will admit that the initial post seems to be one long paragraph, I'll be sure to use college rule line spacing next time, just for you.

As for the punctuation, well if you can't seem to pause while reading it at the appropriate places where punctuation was used, then that's not my problem.

You've missed the point. YOU came here seeking help. Asking good questions helps YOU get an answer. Many people will see a long, rambling paragraph and just give up and not even read it. If you don't get an answer, that's not MY problem.

Fortunately, the TLLTS forums are more friendly and tolerant than most places.

[Anonymous]

You've missed the point. YOU came here seeking help. Asking good questions helps YOU get an answer. Many people will see a long, rambling paragraph and just give up and not even read it. If you don't get an answer, that's not MY problem.

Fortunately, the TLLTS forums are more friendly and tolerant than most places.

Gee Gomer_X,
you make it sound as if I have no clue what the purpose of the forums are all about and that I posted a long and rambling and perhaps meaningless post that no one would even want to read and possibly have something useful to say in response.

Are you the forum critic here or what?
how do know if people in general don't read long posts, I read many posts from others no matter how short or long they are.

The purpose of the forums is to share information between others no matter how short or long something is written out. Not everything that's posted deems a response in the form of an answer but perhaps to direct you in another direction that you hadn't thought about and perhaps that's what I was looking for. Either way, the answer to what I was seeking comes down to the onboard MAC interface being the issue and this is based on doing more testing and comparing the results between three machines. And flashing the bios had no effect in possibly correcting the problem.

With that being said, since it still functions either with linux coming up with an address or by changing the address under windows, I can either just deal with it as is or I could contact asus and see what words of wisdom they could share.

[dann]

So what you are seeing is that the mac address keeps changing under linux and that you have to set the mac address in Windows to the values you saw under Linux?

Can you put any values for the mac address under Windows?

I'm still curious as to why the mac address keeps changing in Linux. I wanna know!

[Anonymous]

So what you are seeing is that the mac address keeps changing under linux and that you have to set the mac address in Windows to the values you saw under Linux?

That is correct, every time that I would boot up the machine that is in question under linux with one of the live cd's, and I used three different ones - either Ubuntu 32bit / 64 bit desktop or Dyne 2.2 32 bit, the first 6 numbers were always constant and it's the last 6 that are changing every time and of all the testing that I have done, they have always been different - never repeating themselves. Even though the first six are always constant, they aren't the correct ones based on comparing them to the values of the identical board which reports the manufacturer to be asus.

Can you put any values for the mac address under Windows?

Yes - even though I tried it with the very first set of numbers and found that they worked and since every value has worked under linux, the hypothesis would deem that the others should work as well. What I haven't tried doing is just plug in anything on my own or try it with the last six numbers taken from the other machines that I had tested but that probably would work as well.

I'm still curious as to why the mac address keeps changing in Linux. I wanna know!

Of the three machines that I tested, each one has the nic built in and when I seen that the two of the three machines maintained their values every time, it pretty much summed it up that the problem is the LAN PHY chip on the motherboard. As to why or how it has altered itself is unknown and the same goes to the question as to why the address changes under linux and can work compared to windows, where it comes up with 0-9 + ab and is DIW until the address is changed. That part is still the mystery. Even though I have pinpointed it to be that one chip. Perhaps if I had something to diagnose the actions of that chip, then that would explain what's really happening within it.

[hellonorman]

I will admit that the initial post seems to be one long paragraph, I'll be sure to use college rule line spacing next time, just for you.

As for the punctuation, well if you can't seem to pause while reading it at the appropriate places where punctuation was used, then that's not my problem.

You've missed the point. YOU came here seeking help. Asking good questions helps YOU get an answer. Many people will see a long, rambling paragraph and just give up and not even read it. If you don't get an answer, that's not MY problem.

Fortunately, the TLLTS forums are more friendly and tolerant than most places.

I would like to thank you for being so tolerant.