Video of Stallman picking stuff off his foot and eating it

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Vogateer
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Post by Vogateer » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:27 pm

I am passionate about language, the same way Richard Stallman is passionate about free software. Language is the expression of ideas and reality, and ideas—as anyone in the free software world should know :wink:—are terribly important. I don't object to Stallman's passion or his trying to convince people that language such as intellectual property is loaded; I object to his condescending and coarse treatment of people, particularly how he treated Linc, who I thought had a valid question by the way. If openness and control and the four freedoms are the issues, then by what principle does copying come in and nullify those concerns when it comes to hardware? So the lack of a "hardware copying device" means those concerns disappear? I never did hear him connect the dots on that one. Maybe he could have explained it, but he was too busy telling Linc how confused he supposedly was. What an ass.

The pharmaceutical industry is a tough area anyhow, with concerns about the cost of research, FDA approval, and testing making it terribly expensive to create drugs, and then you must take into account that you're not just paying for the manufacturing cost of the pill or vaccine, but the research and testing of all the drugs that didn't make it as well. There's no easy answer to making drugs accessible to others while still allowing pharmaceutical companies to make enough money to fund future research. So I see someone trying to cut through the complexity of such an issue by simply lumping it together with murder is avoiding a ton of thorny issues, and I call them on the cop-out it is.

This isn't about theories or word choice, it's about reality. Tsuroerusu, these acts that have been described are not murder in theory or practice. If some guy gets hit in the street, and you don't help him, you still did not murder him. You chose not to help him, which makes you a disgusting human being, but you still didn't murder him, neither in practice nor in theory. You don't simply get to call something murder just because it's bad, unless you want to dilute the meaning of words to where they become meaningless. When the word rape can mean both the horrible idea it is meant to express and also mean that when some girl gets drunk, leads a guy to her room, takes his clothes off and aggressively moves in to have sex with him, then rape begins to lose it's meaning. That sort of dilution of a word is despicable, because it begins to lose all impact and meaning.

You seem to make no distinction between what is usually talked about as sins of omission and sins of commission. There's been disease and starvation throughout the history of man, and there will certainly continue to be disease so long as we live. A pharmaceutical company is not responsible from someone contracting a disease, or that person's death. It would have happened had the pharmaceutical company not even existed. They didn't cause anything to happen.

They may choose not to help, but then it becomes a very complex ordeal, much more complex than someone who didn't help a dying man by making a simple phone call to fetch an ambulance. If they give those drugs away, it cuts into their profits, which cuts into research funding, and you get the idea of the domino effect that comes from this. Basically you start getting down to choices of losing money now to help someone now, or making more money to fund future drugs that will help someone else down the line. No good decisions either way. Throwing the word murder around so loosely doesn't help anyone.
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Post by TankCatNinjaFish » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:09 pm

For once I'm glad a thread has been hijacked, good job tsuro!
Tsuroerusu wrote:
greggh wrote:Any government or company attempting to enforce patents on such drugs with the full knowledge that doing so would result in the drugs being scarcer in that country and cause more people to die because they can't get those drugs, seems pretty close to murder morally, if not identical, in my book.
I agree.

Look, if take a walk, and on the way I find a dude that has been hit by a car and he is dying, if I take out a gun and shoot the guy, that's surely murder. If I just sneer at him and continue my walk, he dies because I didn't help him, like by calling an ambulance for example. Murder is murder, whether directly or indirectly.
But where is the line? Less extreme example: I'm in the process of applying to grad school in biochemistry/genetics. So I could potentially become a cancer researcher and contribute to a cure for cancer (or whatever). But hey, I might change my mind and do something else. If I don't spend the rest of my life trying to cure cancer, am I responsible at all for people who died of cancer? I agree its a noble and honorable cause to save lives, but I can't say I blame people for minding their own business.
Vogateer wrote:The pharmaceutical industry is a tough area anyhow, with concerns about the cost of research, FDA approval, and testing making it terribly expensive to create drugs, and then you must take into account that you're not just paying for the manufacturing cost of the pill or vaccine, but the research and testing of all the drugs that didn't make it as well. There's no easy answer to making drugs accessible to others while still allowing pharmaceutical companies to make enough money to fund future research. So I see someone trying to cut through the complexity of such an issue by simply lumping it together with murder is avoiding a ton of thorny issues, and I call them on the cop-out it is.
Yea, RMS clearly doesn't know the pharmaceutical industry (beyond his liberal media bias (yes I'm fairly right wing/libetarian)) and should stick to talking about software patents, b/c software and pharmaceuticals are almost complete opposites. A single drug costs maybe $1 billion, hundreds/thousands of people and up to 2 decades to create, assuming the project doesn't fail in the middle. And manufacturing the drug isn't trivial either. Whereas very sophistocated software can be made by a team of 10 or less in a small rented office in about 6-12 month from proposal to version 1.0. And the end product can be replicated at no cost.

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Post by Tsuroerusu » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:37 pm

TankCatNinjaFish wrote:For once I'm glad a thread has been hijacked, good job tsuro!
Sure no problem, I guess. :roll:

TankCatNinjaFish wrote:But where is the line?
That is a question only you yourself, can answer for yourself.
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Post by chuck » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:35 am

greggh wrote:He equated companies or governments trying to enforce phamaceutical patents in third world countries where people are dying for lack of drugs to treat certain diseases with murder. I don't think he's far off on that one. He makes a clear distinction between pharmaceutical patents in wealthy countries and poor ones.
What is the difference between defending pharmaceutical patents in wealthy countries vs poor countries?

Simply because I live in a wealthy country does not mean that I can afford the drugs to cure or treat a disease that I may have.

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Post by chuck » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:41 am

Vogateer wrote: When the word rape can mean both the horrible idea it is meant to express and also mean that when some girl gets drunk, leads a guy to her room, takes his clothes off and aggressively moves in to have sex with him, then rape begins to lose it's meaning. That sort of dilution of a word is despicable, because it begins to lose all impact and meaning.
How does the word lose the impact and meaning if the same act is occurring?

Simply because the female is the aggressor does not make the act different.

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Post by Vogateer » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:56 pm

chuck wrote:
Vogateer wrote: When the word rape can mean both the horrible idea it is meant to express and also mean that when some girl gets drunk, leads a guy to her room, takes his clothes off and aggressively moves in to have sex with him, then rape begins to lose it's meaning. That sort of dilution of a word is despicable, because it begins to lose all impact and meaning.
How does the word lose the impact and meaning if the same act is occurring?

Simply because the female is the aggressor does not make the act different.
Whoa, I didn't finish that example. I was talking about a case where this girl I mentioned woke up the next morning and accused the guy of rape, even though she initiated the sex.
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Post by greggh » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:03 pm

chuck wrote:
greggh wrote:He equated companies or governments trying to enforce phamaceutical patents in third world countries where people are dying for lack of drugs to treat certain diseases with murder. I don't think he's far off on that one. He makes a clear distinction between pharmaceutical patents in wealthy countries and poor ones.
What is the difference between defending pharmaceutical patents in wealthy countries vs poor countries?

Simply because I live in a wealthy country does not mean that I can afford the drugs to cure or treat a disease that I may have.
Is this really the torturous semantic road you want to go down now? Are you really going to type away at your keyboard, that the difference between a third world country with millions dying of AIDS compared to a wealthy nation, is just too subtle a difference of kind and scale for someone to recognize the difference in rightness or wrongness of enforcing pharmaceutical patents in one vs. the other?

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Post by Vogateer » Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:04 pm

greggh wrote:Is this really the torturous semantic road you want to go down now? Are you really going to type away at your keyboard, that the difference between a third world country with millions dying of AIDS compared to a wealthy nation, is just too subtle a difference of kind and scale for someone to recognize the difference in rightness or wrongness of enforcing pharmaceutical patents in one vs. the other?
The problem is that you end up with someone deciding who is deserving of what care. Nobody should be forced to decide whether poor people in a rich country or poor people in a poor country receive treatment. You enforce patents in the rich country and not the poor country, then the cost of healthcare for the rich country goes up, and the cost of health care in the U.S. is a serious problem already.

You'll never achieve some sort of cosmic justice no matter what you do. Give away the cost of researching the drugs to poor nations so that they can get drugs for next to nothing, and you deny those in rich nations who can't afford it and cut into research that could provide future life-saving drugs. Are the poor in poor nations more deserving than the poor in rich nations? Do the opposite, and the poor nation suffers. There's obviously no good and simple answer when you're talking about something as complicated as healthcare.
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Post by chuck » Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:43 pm

greggh wrote:
Is this really the torturous semantic road you want to go down now? Are you really going to type away at your keyboard, that the difference between a third world country with millions dying of AIDS compared to a wealthy nation, is just too subtle a difference of kind and scale for someone to recognize the difference in rightness or wrongness of enforcing pharmaceutical patents in one vs. the other?
So basically you're saying that it is fortunate to get AIDS in a third world country because you don't have to worry about those annoying patent issues as you happened to be born in a poor country. Yet if you were born in a rich country, even under poor conditions yourself, your life is worth less simply because your country as a whole has more resources?

(edited to correct quoting)

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Post by greggh » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:06 pm

chuck wrote:
greggh wrote:
Is this really the torturous semantic road you want to go down now? Are you really going to type away at your keyboard, that the difference between a third world country with millions dying of AIDS compared to a wealthy nation, is just too subtle a difference of kind and scale for someone to recognize the difference in rightness or wrongness of enforcing pharmaceutical patents in one vs. the other?
So basically you're saying that it is fortunate to get AIDS in a third world country because you don't have to worry about those annoying patent issues as you happened to be born in a poor country. Yet if you were born in a rich country, even under poor conditions yourself, your life is worth less simply because your country as a whole has more resources?

(edited to correct quoting)
Yeah, sure, that's exactly what I'm saying. :roll:

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Post by doublejoon » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:10 am

Ewww naaaasty!
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Post by greggh » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:43 pm

I was looking for some more videos of Stallman and came across these two...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1837859029 French

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9322064533 Spanish

The guy is fluent in French and Spanish. Amazing.

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Post by Patrick » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:44 pm

greggh wrote: The guy is fluent in French and Spanish. Amazing.
So why does he yell at audience members questioning him to speak to him in English??
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Post by greggh » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:53 pm

Patrick wrote:
greggh wrote: The guy is fluent in French and Spanish. Amazing.
So why does he yell at audience members questioning him to speak to him in English??
I think that's because aside from being super smart, he's a combative, moody, troubled guy.

Oh, and here another one of him doing an interview on Italian Radio. Although he doesn't speak Italian he understands it well enough that a short way into the interview he tells the translator that she doesn't need to translate the questions to him.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2594558163

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