question for older folks

TankCatNinjaFish · Post by **TankCatNinjaFish** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:05 am

This is off topic but I thought I might ask anyway b/c a lot of the listeners of this show seem older (my definition of 'old' is 30+ with family/kids) and may have seen something like this before.

So a colleague of mine, let's call him Fred, was fired. Here's what happened: He comes over to my man cave (a.k.a. the server room, where i usually am) on wednesday. He tells me that he got a call from the boss (he's never in the office) saying that the company's in deep shit, that there was going to be some major down sizing, and that he was let go. He was even asked explicitely by the boss not to tell anyone else for some reason, but we're friends so he gave me the heads up to start looking for a new job. Fred mentions that our boss might hire him as a contractor if the company starts doing better. We exchange stories and say our good byes and good lucks.

Well, Fred had been working there for 3+ years, so I definitely expected to go along with him since I've been with the company for only 8 months. Not really a big deal, I'm only 23 and basically have no responsibilities. So naturally I look for another job.

But on Friday, the boss pulls me into the his office, and informs that he let go of Fred. Now, he doesn't know that I know what he really told Fred. Instead, my boss tells me he fires him b/c of his performance. I thought this was weird b/c he didn't mention anything about a downsizing. I did some poking around and apparently there's no downsizing, the company isn't in trouble at all.

It turns out it was all a lie made up so that he could fire Fred but still keep open the possibility of hiring him for contract work in case something he wrote breaks.

Now, I have no problem with firing an underperforming employee (i don't think he was underperforming but that's besides the point). What I do have a problem with is complete and utter deception. Fuck, if you're going to fire someone, tell it to his face in person, not make up some bullshit excuse over the phone. For 3 years of one's life, you owe him that much.

My dillemma is that now, I essentially can't trust my boss any more b/c he might be playing me as well: Since Fred had just finished a project when he was fired, my boss could just be waiting for my project to finish before throwing me overboard as well. I don't know if I should quit now before wasting too much of my time or what.

Has anyone seen anything like this? Is this kind of practice normal, 'business as usual' as they say? Are people usually fired in such roundabout and deceptive ways? Any advice from the elders appreciated.

allix · Post by **allix** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:47 am

I am no elder

What i can say , is that this sounds to me fairly normal, i was somewhere , admittedly only for a few days and there was some excuse for me to go, but it was not because of slacking or anything, this was some factory assembly line packing paint brushes or something, it was a while back ,it also happened to someone working there too.

Of course the comparisons are not compatible, but sadly a lot of business's do not give two shits about there workers a less they make them healthy profits.

I agree with you honesty is better, especially for references, its like your friend applies for a new job and tells the company he is interviewed for that he lost his job due to the company excuse that there going under and in the meantime , that employer phones that company for a reference and gets a different story.

In regard to your job, are you on any contract? then again what's a contract than a one sided document?
I would look out for other potential positions at other companies while working there, don't quit your job until you get a new one.

yeti · Post by **yeti** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:24 am

Sadly, i have to agree - its normal management BS to in my experience. I've seen similiar acts performed by management people.

Then again, in defence of your boss - is it not entirely possible that Fred told you something entirely different to save himself looking a bit crap at his job?

Only you can decide who is telling the truth (if anyone) but as always, keep an eye out since something better could just be around the corner

Good luck!

oh yes, im an Elder (30+, married with kids)

snarkout · Post by **snarkout** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:25 am

All I can offer is that there are always at least two sides to every story. If you're around a person much, you will tend to get an idea of what sort of person they are. I guess if you're facing a moral dilemma you'll need to weigh several things - is your friend a liar versus is your boss a liar for a start. If it's important enough to you, you'll most likely have to confront "Fred" first since he cannot fire you or make your at-work life miserable while your boss can.

Also, consider this - is it possible that your boss was trying to do the "right thing" by softening the blow to Fred? I can tell you that I work with a LOT of dead wood, and most of these folks would never be able to admit this fact to themselves. They could take "downsizing" but would probably get ugly quickly if they were told they didn't have the skills to pay the bills.

TankCatNinjaFish · Post by **TankCatNinjaFish** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:41 am

Hmmm... I never considered the possibility that Fred might be the one lying, but I doubt it. 1) He's never lied to me before and has had my back from day one, 2) he seemed very sincerely when he came to see my, and 3) it's a bad lie to tell: why would he convince me I was going to be fired if I could've easily found out there was no downsizing, etc?

If it was simply a white lie to lessen the blow to Fred, I still say that's cowardly and overall a shitty thing to do. And it doesn't change the fact that in my eyes I can no longer trust management at this company.

One other thing that bothers me is that the last few days, the boss has been unusually flattering and complimenting my work. This either means a) he's starting to really see the brilliance of the code I write, b) he's not paying enough attention to the crap I'm writing, or c) he's screwing with me as well.

allix: No, I'm currently a contractor so I can be fired/quit at will. Though your idea of waiting to quit until I find a better job is the best idea I've had

for all I know my management is looking for a replacement for me as I type this.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:29 pm

I am over 30, in fact over 40. Unfortunately I have to say that there are a lot of unethical things that happen in business. You really don't always know who is telling the truth. It is hard to find a company that is not unethical at times (I wish this were not true). If your friend was older he may have been more expensive to the company and so they really let him go for that reason. Sometimes the things they tell people are lies because the truth may be unethical or illegal. Especially when it comes to reasons for firing, etc. One thing I would say is that if the boss didn't have the decency or guts to tell your friend in person, rather than on the phone, he is probably a lousy person to work for.

KStorm · Post by **KStorm** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:24 pm

"All suits lie."
--Linc Fessenden

...and some lie even when their mouths are shut.

schotty · Post by **schotty** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:55 pm

Any boss that warns of downsizing is an idiot. This is going to kill your business, rather than have to put up with a downsized organization. What this guy should have done is keep his face shut, redo a contract with "Fred" and tell him that he will be called in as needed. This way those that are going to stay dont flip out. Those that are going to be shitcanned wont go ape, and those that are to be laid off for a wee while wont go mental worrying about the time off.

Right now, he just risked a massive walk out at any time. There are jobs out there and if the word got out, everyone could be working within a week or two elsewhere. Not good or smart.

Gomer_X · Post by **Gomer_X** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:20 am

schotty wrote:Any boss that warns of downsizing is an idiot.

I agree.

Seems to me the employer is just stupid (or Fred is bending the truth). Any employer has a certain liability when firing someone without good cause. Firing someone because "we might be downsizing" is a lot less defensible than firing for performance reasons. The fact that they DIDN'T downsize and are keeping less senior employees makes the story more suspect. If they're really downsizing, why not just lay him off?

It's possible that they just want to protect his feelings, but it just doesn't make much sense to me.