Stealing your neighbors wi-fi

[Guest]

Okay, I'm obviously not making this clear enough. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS RIGHT!!!

I am only saying that people shouldn't leave their keys in their cars. Only stupid people leave wireless unsecured and then cry about it later.

[Judland]

I think we understand. It's just a friendly discussion.

I guess I'm also saying that it's unfortunate that we live in a society where we can't leave our keys in our own car and not be afraid of someone stealing it.

Heck, as a kid I remember not even having to lock the front door to your house when you went out. Can't do that anymore.

[Judland]

I even remember a time when it was okay to open up a door to someone's car and turn of their headlights when you noticed they left them on accidentally.

When I see that now I just walk by; 1) because the car is probably locked up and/or has an alarm and 2) I'd be afraid of being accused of trying to steal it or what was in it.

[Linc]

You're right... but still, you know someone is paying to have this service, you don't have permission to use this service nor are you compensating that person for the use of a service they're paying for and you're not.

You can justify it all you want, I would still feel wrong in using something without permission just because I can.

Dann, I'm still confused as to why using someone's wifi without their permission, just because you can, is different than purchasing music from a company that's found a loop-hole to allow them to sell it for pennies... outside of the RIAA's rules and regulations.

Well, I guess it's in the perception Judland. I happen to see it the other way. There is really no immediate and real mechanism for providing a free access point other than to do it. Just as there is really no mechanism for *NOT* providing a free access point other than to do it (by simply securing your AP).

Now if I encounter a free AP and I need to use it, I will. If the owner's intention was not to provide free service, then that person would have/should have made their intentions clear.

However, I should point out that I am not speaking of crossing someone's property lines or using any other of a host of nefarious means to obtain access here either. I am simply using an example of finding an open access point that is usable from a public place. That is a lot different from parking in someones driveway to use their access.

I look at it partially in the same manner as parking in the city. I have often pulled into a parking space and noticed the parking meter still has time left on it. You can rest assured I do not immediately recoil in horror at the thought of using someone elses property (paid parking time). I simply mutter "thanks" to myself and go on my merry way. now many of you may not see the correlation, but here it is in a nutshell: Public property, private service being paid for by someone other than you and you don't have permission to use it other than it's just sitting there going to waste and obviously if it were a problem for the purchaser, they would have left their car there (or secured their WAP - even in a most rudamentary manner).

Oh well, just my $.02...

[dann]

Again, in my mind, it comes down to the law of not taking advantage of others just because you can.

I agree with you there. You're right, you should not take advantage of someone because you can. But I must admit I am wracking my brains trying to find a parallel example to make a point. I don't know of any other technology or service that cross the boundaries of personal space and property to the extent that wireless connectivity does. Have a wireless nic and you're good to go, especially if the wap is not secured in anyway.

Part of me wants to think that hey, I pay for my internet connection. So if I need to pop on-line when I am away from home and there is an open access point, no problem. I'm not trying to snoop around on this network, all I want to do is conduct some business and be on my way. Nothing illegal. Sure this is a bit of a grey area, but I'd like to think that share and share alike applies here.

I'll ask you this: if free wi-fi for your neighbors is okay in your mind, then why aren't you the one providing this service to everyone?

I have no problem doing this. But I also know that there are people out there who would not be so honorable. Not my neighbors, mind you, but some schmuck rolling down the road who might use my access points for nefarious activities. Thus, I know enough to secure my points from this type of intrusion.

If my neighbor asked I would gladly let them use my service (my contract does not forbid this by the way). Hell, I have even offered.

There has been enough reporting in the medai regarding these topics that most people should know by now if they are running an unsecured wireless connection than they are partly responsible for any unwanted activity. Ignorance is no excuse.

If you leave your hose on in your front yard I have no right to come up an use it. But if you throw you hose in the middle of the street and turn it on; don't get pissed if I decide to use your water to clean my hands.

If I leave a copy of Linux Journal on my porch, I should not expect to see some stranger leafing through the magazine. But if I drop the magazine in the street I should not get pissed if I see someone reading it.

[dann]

I even remember a time when it was okay to open up a door to someone's car and turn of their headlights when you noticed they left them on accidentally.

When I see that now I just walk by; 1) because the car is probably locked up and/or has an alarm and 2) I'd be afraid of being accused of trying to steal it or what was in it.

You bring up great points there. If I see my neighbors car lights on my first response is to knock on there door. But if it is late at night I will check to see if their doors are open before I bother them. This does cause a bit of hesitation though.

If I see a car in a store lot or restaurant and the lights are on; I'll get the license plate number. But if it is a place where it would be difficult to determine where the owner may be (i.e.; mall, movies) I will make an attempt to turn the lights off for them. Again, this causes anxiety in the process; but hell, I'd rather someone did that for me than let me face a dead battery.

Heck, as a kid I remember not even having to lock the front door to your house when you went out. Can't do that anymore.

I rarely lock the door to my house or even my car in my neighborhod, at work, or in the town I grew up in. I don't leave anything valuable in the car. Maybe one day this will come back to bite me in the ass, but so frar, no problems.

[Judland]

These are all good points and I learn a lot when discussions like this happen. It's interesting to me to read other peoples points of view.

Good stuff.

[Guest]

I think we understand. It's just a friendly discussion.

I guess I'm also saying that it's unfortunate that we live in a society where we can't leave our keys in our own car and not be afraid of someone stealing it.

Heck, as a kid I remember not even having to lock the front door to your house when you went out. Can't do that anymore.

Yeah, sorry about that. I just get a little frustrated when people read past the "the point is" statements I make. I often use extraneous examples because they lend themselves easier to imagery.

[Guest]

My personal feeling is that if they do not do anything to stop a person from connecting then it should be legal for me to use. To get on to the public net.

I see wireless like sidewalks. A lot of them are on private land. And more then likely placed there for the owners ease of use. If there is no gate or anything to stop me from walking on it its fair for me to walk across it. And for myself, I am more likely to walk across the sidewalk the further away from the house the sidewalk is.

Now me walking on the sidewalk does not hurt anything. They own the land and I am using the land to get from point A to point B (public place) and they are paying the tax’s and for the hardware (sidewalk) for me to use it. No harm has been done! I see using there wireless connection to get from my computer to the public web the same way.

also how am I suppose to know if someone wants to give there wireless signal away for free?? example: I knew a guy at the last place I lived that used the defaults for his wireless and he didn't care who used it. But he didn't want to give permission to any one to use it for legal reasons. IE if I do not know then i’m not liable. (I know even that is a gray area as far as liability).

[Ridgid]

above post is mine, forgot to log in

Ridgid

[bosshoff]

My personal feeling is that if they do not do anything to stop a person from connecting then it should be legal for me to use. To get on to the public net.

I see wireless like sidewalks. A lot of them are on private land. And more then likely placed there for the owners ease of use. If there is no gate or anything to stop me from walking on it its fair for me to walk across it. And for myself, I am more likely to walk across the sidewalk the further away from the house the sidewalk is.

I don't know what country you live in, but here in American cities and towns, sidewalks are maintained by the DPW (Department of Public Works). Thus, it is actually a piece of town property on private land, much as electric lines are set up. Not only are you allowed to use these sidewalks, but, if a landowner gated the sidewalks, he/she would be prosecuted, just as if he/she decided to keep the electric company from accessing electric poles on his/her property.

Now me walking on the sidewalk does not hurt anything. They own the land and I am using the land to get from point A to point B (public place) and they are paying the tax’s and for the hardware (sidewalk) for me to use it. No harm has been done!

On the contrary, everything you do on another person's wireless hurts his connection. What if this person is using his wireless at full capacity? In this case, you would be pushing his bandwidth limit down, a bandwidth limit he payed for.

I see using their wireless connection to get from my computer to the public web the same way.

Yes the Internet is public, just as lakes are. However, just because you have the right to use a lake doesn't mean that you have the right to a boat on the lake. So get off the dude's connection, get yourself a modem, and get a job so you can start paying for your very own broadband.

[Ridgid]

I don't know what country you live in, but here in American cities and towns, sidewalks are maintained by the DPW (Department of Public Works). Thus, it is actually a piece of town property on private land, much as electric lines are set up. Not only are you allowed to use these sidewalks, but, if a landowner gated the sidewalks, he/she would be prosecuted, just as if he/she decided to keep the electric company from accessing electric poles on his/her property.

Last time it snow'd around here It wasnt a DPW worker scooping the sidewalk. so I do not see how you can say its maintained by them. also My parents do not have sidewalks though the city wants them to put them in. and guess what, my parents have to pay for it if they get forced to put them in!. I can see the legal problems where its a sidewalk following a street. but if a guy has a sidewalk running from the street to the allyway in the back yard he would have every right to place a fence there.

On the contrary, everything you do on another person's wireless hurts his connection. What if this person is using his wireless at full capacity? In this case, you would be pushing his bandwidth limit down, a bandwidth limit he payed for.

if someone is using his wireless at full capacity then they should be smart enough to setup even the most basic level of encryption.

Yes the Internet is public, just as lakes are. However, just because you have the right to use a lake doesn't mean that you have the right to a boat on the lake.

this doesn't apply to what i'm saying, if I took someones boat, then they could not use it. where in this instance they can be using at the same time with the probabilty there is no affect to them. and if they are seeing a degrade of service they should be setting up encryption to stop it.

So get off the dude's connection, get yourself a modem, and get a job so you can start paying for your very own broadband.

I am not on some dudes connection, im speaking from my point of view on the matter. I live a couple of miles out of town hence this really isnt a issue. as far as jobs, I have 2, one is raising my kid, and the other is a part time job.

Ridgid

[Judland]

Now me walking on the sidewalk does not hurt anything. They own the land and I am using the land to get from point A to point B (public place) and they are paying the tax’s and for the hardware (sidewalk) for me to use it. No harm has been done! I see using there wireless connection to get from my computer to the public web the same way.

What if it's not a paved sidewalk. What if people have been cutting across the guys' property for so long that they beat down a trail across his lawn. He didn't want that but these people have so little respect, it has happened anyway. Now you come along, see this trail and think, "Hmm... I guess it's okay for me to take this short cut, too."

Are you telling me that all property owners should have their yards fenced in and guard dogs patrolling to keep trespassers out?

If so, I think it's wrong. People should have enough respect and common sense to stay off of private property, guarded or not.

If you want free Wi-Fi access, go stake out an Internet Cafe. Using private access points that you do not own is still wrong, in my book.

[Ridgid]

Are you telling me that all property owners should have their yards fenced in and guard dogs patrolling to keep trespassers out?

If so, I think it's wrong. People should have enough respect and common sense to stay off of private property, guarded or not.

actually it is the property owners responsibility to keep trespassers off their property, lookup EASEMENTS ACQUIRED BY USE OF PROPERTY and/or ADVERSE POSSESSION.

If you want free Wi-Fi access, go stake out an Internet Cafe. Using private access points that you do not own is still wrong, in my book.

Wrong, could be, but there is no way for a person to tell if the owner of the access point wishes to share it or not. So for me, its not wrong, if it has no security at all on the system then their intent is to share it.

Ridgid

[Judland]

So, I'm assuming, Ridgid, that if you happened across Dann's house, found the door unlocked while he was out, you'd make yourself to home?

I guess I was just brought up differently... to actually respect others and their property without having to be told to do so.