Your interview with Eric

[Judland]

Okay this sort of thing really sticks in my "craw".

Tonight you had Eric on the show and your first question for him was his opinion of the Linux desktop "readiness." Surprise, surprise, his opinion was that Linux was not quite yet ready for Joe Public user. Okay, granted, I can accept his opinion.

Your next question was if he's ever had a chance to actually TRY a modern Linux desktop distro, like Linspire or Mepis. Surprise, surprise, NO he hasn't.

What the hell? He's got an opinion without even trying the thing he's commenting on? You know, for me, right then and there his credibility is in question.

If you're going to have an opinion about something and you want us to take you seriously, do us a favor and actually use the thing you're talking about.

Freakin' hear-say and speculation is NOT experience. What else is Eric commenting on that he knows nothing about?

Here's a scenario:

Q: So, Judland, what do you think of the idea of moving to the U.S.?

A: Oh, no. Living in the U.S. is not a good idea. It's not very safe to live there.

Q: Have you ever been to the U.S. before?

A: Well.... no. But I watch Fox News!

Phew... Glad I got that off of my chest.

[Gomer_X]

I just took it to mean he hadn't used those specific distros. Personally I think his credentials speak for themselves.

[Judland]

Well, I could have over reacted to Eric's comments. Maybe if he elaborated on what tests his opinion was based upon would have helped me see his point of view.

I mean, if he's come to this decision based on versions of Linux from a year or even six months ago, then it'd be clear that he hasn't done his homework.

Personally, I tend to agree with Linc's opinion regarding PC users and their need for proper education/training.

[dann]

I agreed with a log of what ESR said. I don't think his familiarity with some of the more modern distributions like Mepis or Ubuntu changes the fact that there are some serious issues that need to be addressed before Linux is adopted in any way by the general user.

I also agree that Windows has the advantage of being pre-installed and almost a forced choice. Most consumers only see two choices: Windows, which everyone already has or Apple which is a costly option. Plus Windows is so inudated into our society that breaking the chain is going to take far more than just emulation of a faulty product. There is comfort in familiarity and most people would rather suffer the devil they know then risk the angel of change.

To that end, Linux must present itself as close as possible to a more secure, more stable, and easier to use system. It must allow people to do what they normally do on a regular basis out of the box. That means mp3 and video codec support, bundled flash player, and easy connectivity to dial-up providers. Until then, the best I think we can expect is the sneaker distrobution: We go out and install it on our friends and relative's computers who have had enough and who we can easily taylor the system to their needs (and be on call for general support).

It's not enough to be faster, cheaper, more secure and more stable. Linux must be more accessible all around.

I think what will change this is for Distro packagers and developers to start listening to the average Joe and stop with the "RTFM" attitude.

[CptnObvious999]

I agreed with a log of what ESR said. I don't think his familiarity with some of the more modern distributions like Mepis or Ubuntu changes the fact that there are some serious issues that need to be addressed before Linux is adopted in any way by the general user.

I also agree that Windows has the advantage of being pre-installed and almost a forced choice. Most consumers only see two choices: Windows, which everyone already has or Apple which is a costly option. Plus Windows is so inudated into our society that breaking the chain is going to take far more than just emulation of a faulty product. There is comfort in familiarity and most people would rather suffer the devil they know then risk the angel of change.

To that end, Linux must present itself as close as possible to a more secure, more stable, and easier to use system. It must allow people to do what they normally do on a regular basis out of the box. That means mp3 and video codec support, bundled flash player, and easy connectivity to dial-up providers. Until then, the best I think we can expect is the sneaker distrobution: We go out and install it on our friends and relative's computers who have had enough and who we can easily taylor the system to their needs (and be on call for general support).

It's not enough to be faster, cheaper, more secure and more stable. Linux must be more accessible all around.

I think what will change this is for Distro packagers and developers to start listening to the average Joe and stop with the "RTFM" attitude.

I agree its good some big computer companies are coming out with Linux versions of their computers. Unfortunately they come with distrobutions like Linspire and SuSE that don't lower the price much if it all. They should have a choice of if you want an OS pre-installed or not but should use very generic hardware and maybe list Operating Systems that have been confirmed to work on it. btw Novell is going to release OpenSuSE so we don't have to pay for the pro version, HURRAY!

Also I checked out the symphony os. It looks very cool. check it out http://www.symphonyos.com

[Guest]

I agree with both points of this arguement. I think that with the adoption of linux 2.6 and devices moving to userland control is a good thing. I think that a middle layer daemon should be created that window managers could communicate with devices, system state, etc. So the WM can decide what to do if something is new or changes. Also by creating that extra layer we would not be taking away from the power of a non X11 system, yet creating an easier to use graphical operating environment.

For instance when my grandmother plugs in her digital camera, I shouldn't have to teach her how to copy the files to a folder in her home folder. She should be able to plug it in, turn it on and it would ask her what to name that group of pictures, or whatever the window manager decides to do with a newly plugged in camera with pictures on it. For instance a more advanced window manager may just open the root folder of the memory card, or not even bother the user(most users at that level now where the hell to go anyways). That way to the general public and hardware manufacturers, we could present linux as a very flexible desktop(which it is), but be able to demonstrate the "appliance level", and down to the C, COBOL programmer level

I am headed to college and would not mind taking this on as a CS project. Any ideas on what to start to get the idea going a little more properly?

[Judland]

I agreed with a log of what ESR said. I don't think his familiarity with some of the more modern distributions like Mepis or Ubuntu changes the fact that there are some serious issues that need to be addressed before Linux is adopted in any way by the general user.

Personally, the only serious issue I see facing today's Linux desktop is marketing.

Gaining 90% of the market share, in my mind, isn't going to be because of a smart or "tutor driven" interface (the pop-up balloon thing that teaches the user as it goes). You look at Microsoft and it's no where near this level of usability, yet it controls the desktop market right now. Why? Shady deals and millions of dollars in sleight-of-hand marketing.

In my opinion, this is the last big hurdle Linux faces.

[Patrick]

Personally, the only serious issue I see facing today's Linux desktop is marketing.

Gaining 90% of the market share, in my mind, isn't going to be because of a smart or "tutor driven" interface (the pop-up balloon thing that teaches the user as it goes). You look at Microsoft and it's no where near this level of usability, yet it controls the desktop market right now. Why? Shady deals and millions of dollars in sleight-of-hand marketing.

In my opinion, this is the last big hurdle Linux faces.

Linux should continue to improve & innovate in areas that the other OS's don't. I agree that an 800 pound gorilla having it's way is the probably the only reason why Microsoft is the dominant desktop OS. We should make wider acceptance our goal. In that respect we need the Aunt Tilley's in our camp. For that to occur the interface definitely needs to get better. We also addressed some of the other weaknesses: codecs, multimedia and package management. These areas need to improve/standardize somewhat.

Apple had a golden opportunity but killed it when they chose to focus on highend hardware sales. They have another opportunity with this Intel switch but will probably f it up again with DRM crap.

[Gomer_X]

Well, I could have over reacted to Eric's comments. Maybe if he elaborated on what tests his opinion was based upon would have helped me see his point of view.

I mean, if he's come to this decision based on versions of Linux from a year or even six months ago, then it'd be clear that he hasn't done his homework.

Eric Raymond has been a Unix developer for 30 years. He's done his homework.

What has impressed me the most is ESR's ability to see the strengths of of the "Unix way" while also being willing to attack it's weaknesses. Have a look at The Art of Unix Programming. It's GPL'd and available for free here.

I don't think he's saying user-friendly Linux doesn't exist, and he cited the good work Ubuntu is doing. I think he's right that most users are below the level of experience even to use Linspire (or Windows, for that matter).

I set up a Fedora box from my fiance that she was able to use without instruction, but I had to tweak lots of stuff and rearrange Gnome a bit. I think we're close to having a generally usable desktop, but there are still plenty of people out there who can't even save a file to their home directory without help. I don't see Linspire/Mepis helping with that.

[Judland]

Eric Raymond has been a Unix developer for 30 years. He's done his homework.

And I've had 20 years of desktop computing experience. I feel I've done mine, too.

[DaveQB]

Lots of good points brought up.

I agree that whats holdingLinux back is purely marketing. With HALd's developement and ever increasing use ability the actual system V system debate doesnt weight in favour of MS.

There's an interesting interview with a prominant fellow from Mozilla/Firefox on Lugradio. edit Here's the real detail "LQ Radio's interview with Asa Dotzler:
http://radio.linuxquestions.org/2005/07 ... tzler.html" And he explained that there perpspective was very much like how Eric put it. What does the user want? How do they want it? and how can we make it as easy and obvious as possible. He even said that Firefox was pretty bad in this area, but was the 'least baddest' in making browsing and computer use enjoyable for the masses.

As for the comments on use ability, people should try Mandriva. I have been a long time user. Everything just works. Plug a digital camera in, it pops up asking if up you want to copy the photo's off it with a simple click of the mouse, plug in a USB drive and its up on your desktop as an icon ready to explore, put a DVD in and it starts playing.

Yes, i have ventured out and used other distro's (been running Gentoo (stage 1 install) for the past month as i screwed my Mandriva install) but i always come back to Mandriva as its the easiest to use, which is what its all about, right ?? Using the system.

[snarkout]

Personally, I'm dismayed that you guys didn't talk about the Hoagie Guy with him.

[dann]

Personally, I'm dismayed that you guys didn't talk about the Hoagie Guy with him.

Oh snap, that would have been a phat topic!

[DaveQB]

I also wanted to clear up that Mandriva plays, mp3's and DVD's out of the box.

urpmi mplayer and you can play WMV QT etc too.

Best distro going for new and advanced users.

[CptnObvious999]

I also wanted to clear up that Mandriva plays, mp3's and DVD's out of the box.

urpmi mplayer and you can play WMV QT etc too.

Best distro going for new and advanced users.

I don't know about advanced users...my friends family uses Mandrake and I tried getting winex on there but it didn't even have gcc so I had to search for an up-to-date rpm package. Maybe it has gotten better since then though...