Poverty Facts and Stats

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Wally Balljacker
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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Wally Balljacker » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:50 pm

allix wrote:
Patrick wrote: The same Hugo Chavez who's attempting to eliminate freedom of the press and enacting other socialistic/communist like policies? He seems to fancy himself a mini Castro. He tried to make himself dictator for life by pushing a bunch of constitutional changes to eliminate term limits and expand his range of powers. The day that assclown is out of power will be a good day.
I respect you have your opinions on socialism.. why do you think its not a solution? After all under a socialist state everyone would benefit including yourself.
Of course i am not going to ignore the atrocities caused in the name of communism. We are all human and whatever good we try to achieve there will always be a bumpy road towards it.
People always point to the atrocities perpetrated by self-declared "communist" states, when in fact, I could easily find more examples of famine and poverty, death and disease from capitalist states. Indonesia, India, Thailand, Nigeria, El Salvador, Haiti, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, anyone? Capitalism doesn't have a great track record, either. Most of the world is poor, and most of the world is also capitalist. See a connection there? :shock: :P People say capitalism works, but who does it work for?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wJLaRhTKzw8

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by allix » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:20 pm

I am not denying that capitalism is fucked up.
Capitalism works for a small minority of extremely wealthy individuals.
People as you rightly say only look at the good of there existence, and say what's shit is just "the way it is, life is unfair" which is utter ignorance.
If people really thought they could make change they would.
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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Vogateer » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:32 am

Wally Balljacker wrote:
allix wrote:
Patrick wrote: The same Hugo Chavez who's attempting to eliminate freedom of the press and enacting other socialistic/communist like policies? He seems to fancy himself a mini Castro. He tried to make himself dictator for life by pushing a bunch of constitutional changes to eliminate term limits and expand his range of powers. The day that assclown is out of power will be a good day.
I respect you have your opinions on socialism.. why do you think its not a solution? After all under a socialist state everyone would benefit including yourself.
Of course i am not going to ignore the atrocities caused in the name of communism. We are all human and whatever good we try to achieve there will always be a bumpy road towards it.
People always point to the atrocities perpetrated by self-declared "communist" states, when in fact, I could easily find more examples of famine and poverty, death and disease from capitalist states. Indonesia, India, Thailand, Nigeria, El Salvador, Haiti, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, anyone? Capitalism doesn't have a great track record, either. Most of the world is poor, and most of the world is also capitalist. See a connection there? :shock: :P People say capitalism works, but who does it work for?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wJLaRhTKzw8
The difference between "atrocities perpetrated by communist states", also known as "killing off your opponents when you can get the results you want", and the famine, poverty, and disease in capitalist states is that the communist states are the direct cause of it. Good ol' Che Guevara was known as the "Butcher of of la Cabaña", and Pol Pot committed genocide, while famine, poverty, and disease have always existed, and have been the norm for the vast majority of human existence, and you can't expect capitalism to work like a magic incantation that cures the world's ills in a short time. Hell, my dad was telling me about how we've never known what it's like to be truly "hungry", of course he was alive during the Great Depression. Capitalism and free exchange works for everyone, as a rising tide rises all boats, but it doesn't work miracles, and it doesn't promise utopia.

So no, I don't see a connection between Capitalism and the famine, poverty, and disease that was already there before capitalism was even an idea or philosophy. :shock: I was always amazed when I went to college, and people were able to find some critique of a system, and that was all the excuse they needed to suggest we throw out the entire system. I heard the same sort of logic used to say that the grading system needed to be thrown out, and have people give themselves their own grades, because the grade the teacher gives you doesn't represent how much you learned. Ignore the fact that giving yourself your own grade would be an even worse representation of what you learned. :roll:

As Allix pointed out, the political stuff doesn't get a lot of response here, and I know that for me it takes up too much time. We can go round and round about capitalism and socialism, repeating the same arguments over and over, and only occasionally learn something. I'd rather read about linux.
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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Wally Balljacker » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:15 am

As it's pointed out in the YouTube video I posted, none of the things we have today are because of capitalism, they were accomplished in spite of it. If it were up to the capitalists, there would be no 8-hour work day, there would be no child labor laws, or workers' compensation, or fair wages. Everything you and I own and take for granted we owe to the people who struggled against capitalism, and who are continuing to do so. If you want unregulated, completely free market capitalism, look back at the year 1900, when poverty was widespread in this country, and workers had no rights, or decent, live-able wages. Or just look at present-day Chinese sweatshops.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Brian » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:08 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote: It just goes to show what the U.S. government's priorities are. Endless war and imperialism, when those funds could completely eliminate much of the world's poverty.
That's right. When we used our funds to rebuild Europe and Japan in the 40's and 50's, the people of those nations wisely acceted our help to get started, and then set out on a course of action to continue their rebuilding on their own. It's called opportunity. We could have let them rot but we didn't. When tsunamis hit, we're the first ones there and no one else on earth can afford to loan a $5 billion aircraft carrier which costs about $1 million a day to operate to help out. Earthquakes hit Iran a few years ago, we offered to help, yes Iran. When the Olympics came to Greece in 2004, which nation did they ask for to provide special forces for counterterrorism duties? "Oh, America is big and bad but could you please help protect us?" Are you talking about the same U.S. Government that started those little projects called ARPANET and another called GPS? Gee, now I wonder what ever happened to those projects. Surely no one as big and mean as the US Government would just open them up for the world to use.

And who, by the way, helped the US grow to such a rich and prosperous nation? No one. We wisely accepted France's help during the revolution but after that, this nation was built without subsidies from world powers at the time.

Nowadays, every seems to think giving money to the poor, be it a person or a country, is the answer. Yet, we've been giving money to the poor in this country for 40+ years and, guess what? We still have poor people. The same goes for countries. Nations like S. Korea, Japan, Germany have prospered not because we just give them money, but because we buy products and services from them; in other words, THEY WORK FOR IT. They took opportunity and built upon it. Was it easy? Probably not? When other poor nations can do what S. Korea and Japan did, then they will prosper too. No one is holding them back, except, of course, their own so-called leaders. Many of whom, by the way, tend to preach socialism and communism as the way out. Just look at how far Cuba and N. Korea have come. Whoever wants a revolution for that here's a tip. Don't waste your effort and risk your life, just move there and relish is all that you say is good. Take notes too, that is, if you're allowed to do such a thing.

I don't understand why people preach communist or socialist revolt as the answer. There are many examples of this and not a single one, that is 0, zero, none, nada, zilch, zip, have ever produced a nation whose wealth and generosity that come even close to America's.

Here's what we do, we cut off all foreign aid for two years. All of it; even to our friends. Enact a two-year moratorium that prohibits US citizens from donating money to charities that help people abroad (this would really piss off many Americans, the millions and millions who donate to charities regularly). Then, my friends, you will see poverty and endless war and probably a few revolts too that would produce a few more Cubas. However, we would not do such a thing because we know what would happen and it wouldn't be pretty.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Brian » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:25 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:Everything you and I own and take for granted we owe to the people who struggled against capitalism
You tell it, bro! Everything I own was given to me by government regulations. Except for my house, cars, clothes, investments, and everything else in my house. Other than that, you're right on. Of course, I could for opt the dependent on government track and live in a government tenement, get $22 a week for food, and have no savings for the future, but, hey, if that's your vision of paradise, go ahead and sign yourself up.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Wally Balljacker » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:38 pm

Brian wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:Everything you and I own and take for granted we owe to the people who struggled against capitalism
You tell it, bro! Everything I own was given to me by government regulations. Except for my house, cars, clothes, investments, and everything else in my house. Other than that, you're right on. Of course, I could for opt the dependent on government track and live in a government tenement, get $22 a week for food, and have no savings for the future, but, hey, if that's your vision of paradise, go ahead and sign yourself up.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. You seem to be in denial that the labor movement has drastically made life better for working people, and if it were left up to the capitalists (like it is in Chinese sweatshops), you would make about 2 cents an hour.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Brian » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:13 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Brian wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:Everything you and I own and take for granted we owe to the people who struggled against capitalism
You tell it, bro! Everything I own was given to me by government regulations. Except for my house, cars, clothes, investments, and everything else in my house. Other than that, you're right on. Of course, I could for opt the dependent on government track and live in a government tenement, get $22 a week for food, and have no savings for the future, but, hey, if that's your vision of paradise, go ahead and sign yourself up.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. You seem to be in denial that the labor movement has drastically made life better for working people, and if it were left up to the capitalists (like it is in Chinese sweatshops), you would make about 2 cents an hour.

You said "everything I own....owe to the people who struggled against capitialism." I own a lot of things. No Castro-looking mongrel gave them to me. I earned them because those who worked harder and smarter than I - those who run the businesses that employ people - found a need for my labor and services - MY SKILLS -and paid me accordingly. No skills are required to let the government clothe, feed, and house you.

"you would make about 2 cents an hour"

In which case, a gallon of gas would cost about 1/10 of that, a loaf of bread about 1/35 of that, and a 2000 sq ft house would cost about $180. The Linux kernel would still be free.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by allix » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:21 pm

Cuba is not as bad as you think. Its been hugely set back by trade embargoes.
One thing i have learnt from speaking to people that lived under communism in eastern europe, they use to have free education including living expenses free, everyone had a job, everyone had a roof over there head.
Of course the negative sides were freedom of speech. However as i discussed in a earlier post, freedom of speech seems to be only granted when the current goverment has no chance of falling.
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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Wally Balljacker » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:26 pm

Brian wrote:You said "everything I own....owe to the people who struggled against capitialism." I own a lot of things. No Castro-looking mongrel gave them to me. I earned them because those who worked harder and smarter than I - those who run the businesses that employ people - found a need for my labor and services - MY SKILLS -and paid me accordingly. No skills are required to let the government clothe, feed, and house you.
Why is this so hard to understand? If there were no labor laws, you would not be nearly as well off as you are. None of us would be. If there was no minimum wage, MORE people would be living in poverty, and MORE people would have LESS nice things. It's the constant struggle for workers' rights and fair wages that is responsible for you earning a decent living. I'm done repeating this.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Brian » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:30 pm

allix wrote:Cuba is not as bad as you think. Its been hugely set back by trade embargoes.
One thing i have learnt from speaking to people that lived under communism in eastern europe, they use to have free education including living expenses free, everyone had a job, everyone had a roof over there head.
Of course the negative sides were freedom of speech. However as i discussed in a earlier post, freedom of speech seems to be only granted when the current goverment has no chance of falling.

I stick with the sure thing; our current government (albeit not perfect - way too bureaucratic and bloated in some ways) and economic model. I know as long as my invisible hand is contributing, I'll be helping society in some way.

Capitalism is an economical model where the strong survive. If I'm not strong, I can do one of two things: whine about it, or make myself strong (education, work). Yes, I know that business will often whine and use government regulation to protect their interests and I don't always agree with that. However, I think the pros outweigh the cons.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by allix » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:36 pm

Brian wrote: You said "everything I own....owe to the people who struggled against capitialism." I own a lot of things. No Castro-looking mongrel gave them to me. I earned them because those who worked harder and smarter than I - those who run the businesses that employ people - found a need for my labor and services - MY SKILLS -and paid me accordingly. No skills are required to let the government clothe, feed, and house you.

"you would make about 2 cents an hour"

In which case, a gallon of gas would cost about 1/10 of that, a loaf of bread about 1/35 of that, and a 2000 sq ft house would cost about $180. The Linux kernel would still be free.
Bush never gave you money either, so thats a null argument.
Cubans have skills too, the seem to have the best education in central and latin america.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba

I could mention the Cuban health care system which puts "wealthy" America to damn right shame.
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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Brian » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:42 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Brian wrote:You said "everything I own....owe to the people who struggled against capitialism." I own a lot of things. No Castro-looking mongrel gave them to me. I earned them because those who worked harder and smarter than I - those who run the businesses that employ people - found a need for my labor and services - MY SKILLS -and paid me accordingly. No skills are required to let the government clothe, feed, and house you.
Why is this so hard to understand? If there were no labor laws, you would not be nearly as well off as you are. None of us would be. If there was no minimum wage, MORE people would be living in poverty, and MORE people would have LESS nice things. It's the constant struggle for workers' rights and fair wages that is responsible for you earning a decent living. I'm done repeating this.
I understand that some labor laws are necessary and an organized work force has some benefits to society. However, once the benefits become entitlements, then the business will move the work elsewhere and recruit from a new labor pool. This cycle will never end.

Poverty is a relative measure. Because of that, it will always exist.

Ever notice that when the minimum wage goes up, everything else does too? Congress raised the minimum wage and, lo and behold, prices of everything are going up. Well, duh.

Socialism only brings a few people up while bringing everyone else down.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Brian » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:48 pm

allix wrote: Bush never gave you money either, so thats a null argument.
Cubans have skills too, the seem to have the best education in central and latin america.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba

I could mention the Cuban health care system which puts "wealthy" America to damn right shame.
So you've been to Cuba and are sharing personal experience? I am surprised you didn't stay and enjoy Fantasy Island. If you believe that, I have a bridge for sale, cheap.

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Re: Poverty Facts and Stats

Post by Wally Balljacker » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:00 pm

Brian wrote:Socialism only brings a few people up while bringing everyone else down.
Tell that to the people that participated in the Spanish Revolution.

From Wikipedia,

"The communes were run according to the basic principle of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". In some places, money was entirely eliminated, to be replaced with vouchers; however, in practice these "vouchers" performed and functioned as money themselves."

"Despite the critics clamoring for "maximum efficiency" rather than revolutionary methods, anarchic communes often produced more than before the collectivization. In Aragon, for instance, the productivity increased by 20%.[2] The newly liberated zones worked on entirely libertarian principles; decisions were made through councils of ordinary citizens without any sort of bureaucracy (it should be noted that the CNT-FAI leadership was at this time not nearly as radical as the rank and file members responsible for these sweeping changes).

In addition to the economic revolution, there was a spirit of cultural revolution. Traditions some viewed as oppressive were done away with. For instance, women were allowed to have abortions, and the idea of "free love" became popular. In many ways, this spirit of cultural liberation prefigured that of the "New Left" movements of the 1960s."

As George Orwell describes:

"I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life--snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.--had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master."

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