Linux Hardware

[Jza]

I have been looking more and more companies launching Linux oriented PC, linspire being the most notorious, but Linux certified, etc.

[Patrick]

that Linspire mini looks sweet

[Tsuroerusu]

that Linspire mini looks sweet

Maybe, but I still think their distribution comes with a false sense of security by running as root by default.

[jsusanka]

"Maybe, but I still think their distribution comes with a false sense of security by running as root by default."

agreed it is just bad practice and teaching users the wrong thing.

but I am all behind linspire - they have done a lot for the promotion of linux with the hardware vendors - that is a good thing.

and I believe you have to dig but you can create a userid in the install but I may be wrong. but it should do it automatically. I do like ubuntu's and mac way of doing and that is create a sudo user and give them all all. that at least provides a minimal level of protection.

if you by a box with linspire you know it will be compatible with any other distro you chose to put on there.

so kudos to linspire and I hope they keep up the great work with the hardware vendors.

[Patrick]

if you by a box with linspire you know it will be compatible with any other distro you chose to put on there.

so kudos to linspire and I hope they keep up the great work with the hardware vendors.

Exactly! You can throw whatever distro you please and know it will work with confidence. When I installed arch on my new laptop the wireless card was not initializing properly. I booted with the linspire live cd and got the card working. The next time I booted into Arch the card was recognized. Kudos to them. They're making the linux pre-installed system a reality. No one else is doing it besides them. That's the truth.

[Tsuroerusu]

They're making the linux pre-installed system a reality. No one else is doing it besides them. That's the truth.

Yeah, but only in the United States and Latin America (HP and Mandriva are there too now), if you think the amount of pre-installed Linux boxes available for sale in the US low, you need to see the situation here in Denmark, and possibly the rest of Europe, no Linux boxes is to be found ANYWHERE, NO ONE offers it, which bugs the heck out of me, but the sad thing is, even if people had the option, I bet ya they would buy Windows, because they're used to it and Microsoft Office.

[Jza]

I dissagree, dont u have more linux influence in Europe? You have Mandriva HQ and SuSE HQ in Europe not to mention more business partners. I remember Mandriva selling laptop in france and since you all EU you could get it shipped with no major issue. You can also go to mandrake store and order those nifty Mandriva Globtrotter harddrives that are really cool. This is an american-centric podcast so it makes sense we look for american-based providers.

However I am sure LUGradio has the European provider list since well getting linux-safe hardware is always a priority. Linspire.co.uk is another british centric solution.

I live in other countries both in Eastern and Western and most people that buy a computer is an assemble one from the mom-n-pop shop and you can just ask one with Linux pre-installed on linux-compatible HW.

Since they already have a list of hardware providers they can just test the hardware, get it assemple it and sell it to you. I have even seen stores with real vendors having at least 1 mandriva PC on the shells.

You can even get a laptop with linux pre-installed, look:
http://www.flamingo.ro/produs.asp?id=7704

I don't know Danish and I have never lived there so I can't pinpoint where to buy it but I am pretty sure there are.

[Tsuroerusu]

I dissagree, dont u have more linux influence in Europe?

Not in Denmark, I can assure you of that.

You have Mandriva HQ and SuSE HQ in Europe not to mention more business partners.

A big problem is that most people don't know who SUSE and Mandriva are, even the name Mandrake is not very widely known among Denmark's general pupulation.

I remember Mandriva selling laptop in france and since you all EU you could get it shipped with no major issue. You can also go to mandrake store and order those nifty Mandriva Globtrotter harddrives that are really cool.

Well, who's gonna bother when they can go down to a local store and buy a HP Pavilion preloaded with Windows XP? No one knows they have the option, and even if they did it's too troublesome, and the next step would be too expensive, the support options are not good enough for the general non-experienced computer user, for example a lot of people I know need support in danish because they either aren't very good at english or aren't very good at modern english, that's the case with my mum (she don't know what default means). Also another problem here in Denmark, and I think it's a problem is Europe in general, is that there are so many countries with so many different languages, and the translation for most distros are far far far from complete, or incorrent. For example in SUSE, KDE and most of the desktop is in danish but then when you pull up YaST, it throws a mix of danish and english in the face of you, because it never really was seriously worked on, Mandriva is a little better, but they use all sorts of weird-ass words that people aren't used to.

This is an american-centric podcast so it makes sense we look for american-based providers.

Of course, but Pat and Dann have mentioned the thing, or at least a couple of times, about Linux being popular "over seas", and in a few places it is pretty big, a few big cities in Germany have made the the switch (Dortmund, and some other I can't remember), Munich is still planning their migration of 14,000 desktops, Vienna is in the very late planning stages...... Steve Ballmer argued on a business conference: "There is no apreciable amount of Linux on the client, anywhere in the world, look at the city of ...... now Munuch is Munich, yes there is the city of Munich, yes we lost the city of Munich, but they're still, let me pick a polight word here, they're still diddling around.. to do the migration........."
I hate to even come close to agreeing with Ballmer, but a few of the things he says is true, we really havn't seen a REALLY huge Windows->Linux migration completed successfully, with positive results, with the facts put in place that Linux does actually save people money, and doubles the value of the service/product dusins of times. I'm here to tell you, even though you hear a lot of stories about Europe being very interested in Linux, it's not something that everyday people, including me, see anything of, only in a few cities outside of Denmark, has acutally a respectable amount of Linux workstations/thin clients running.

However I am sure LUGradio has the European provider list since well getting linux-safe hardware is always a priority. Linspire.co.uk is another british centric solution.

Well, LUGradio is just as serious about their Linux talk as Linc is serious about Emacs. I've tried listening to their stuff, and it's just "utter bollocks" to use one of their own phrases. They spend like 5 mins. talking about a topic, and two of those are spent initiating the conversation, then 15 min. interviews, that are far from indepth, and then they go on to talk about all kinds of stuff that really makes no sense at all.
My point is: LUGradio, is far from, what I would call, interesting.

I live in other countries both in Eastern and Western and most people that buy a computer is an assemble one from the mom-n-pop shop and you can just ask one with Linux pre-installed on linux-compatible HW.

Well, that's certainly not the case here in Scandinavia, and pretty much the same as in the rest of Europe, even though Linux may seem big, it's not something that makes the newspapers write about it. Also let me tell you something else, here in Denmark there are this company called KMD, which sells computers and IT-related stuff to the schools, and they don't have a single non-Microsoft offering, everything is based around Windows, and a lot of the traning students can get at spreadsheet and word processing, is based on Word and Excel, and it's app focused, instead of teaching general things so the students could sit down and use OpenOffice fairly eaisily, they focus strictly on how to doing formulas and stuff in Word and Excel............ I have only run into ONE StarOffice course, and that was with the old-ass StarOffice 6.0, which was what like OpenOffice 1.0.x?

Since they already have a list of hardware providers they can just test the hardware, get it assemple it and sell it to you. I have even seen stores with real vendors having at least 1 mandriva PC on the shells.

You can even get a laptop with linux pre-installed, look:
http://www.flamingo.ro/produs.asp?id=7704

Good for you guys in america, at least you do have the option, even though it may be a little limited at times, but at least you do have the option.

I don't know Danish and I have never lived there so I can't pinpoint where to buy it but I am pretty sure there are.

Dude trust me, I have looked everywhere, I can only find Microsoft and in a few cases, Apple. I had a 3-day discussion about this, about a month ago, at linuxin.dk, which is a danish Linux forum, and we could not find a single place to buy a PC with Linux preinstalled, or even without an operating system, because a guy asked where he could buy one, and we said: Fry's in the US, mailorder one, because it's not available here.


Believe my points if you want to, or don't, but I have actually been to Munich last year, no progess outside of the planning stages yet, on the big Linux migration, I just pray that they don't cancel it, because I think moving 14,000 machines to Debian, will benefit everybody.

[Jza]

a) Are system builders in denmark?
b) Do u sell linux distros from ur danish website?
c) Is there a linux user group in Denmark?
d) Do u have friends that own internet cafes in denmark who are willing to try linux?

It doesnt take much for a system builder to just build a desktop and put linux on it and publish it on his website. I am sure you can do it if you had the contacts with hardware manufacturers.

Dan talk about OS-less laptops like Asus, have u tried contact their danish heaquarter?

Call HP, IBM, Dell and ask for a Linux whatever, and if they don't know just insist till they tell u why and when will be available.

This are not my words but some of this conclusions have come from Marcel Gagne, and John Maddog who well tell that a cosumer has a responsability to let the providers help them.

I think this whining for lack of products is a business opportunity. Since you can be the provider. I know you are 14, but you can already build a desktop machine, and you can also build a website, so there is really nothing much holding you back to at least put a storefront on the web. Printing 100 business card with the URL and just visiting shops and manufacturers and other system builders.

[Tsuroerusu]

a) Are system builders in denmark?

There are two that builds systems in DK, Amitech and Medion. I doubt HP, IBM.... builds the systems in Denmark.

b) Do u sell linux distros from ur danish website?

You can go to linuxshoppen.dk or linuxpusher.dk and purchase Red Hat and SUSE products, and you can also buy burned CDs.

c) Is there a linux user group in Denmark?

There's a bunch of them, but not like a lot, but there are about 5 big ones, and when I say big, I mean big ones.

d) Do u have friends that own internet cafes in denmark who are willing to try linux?

Who me? No, but internet cafes in Denmark are almost only about gaming, you won't find a lot of internet cafes that just offer internet surfing and email services, you can go to the library and do that for free.

It doesnt take much for a system builder to just build a desktop and put linux on it and publish it on his website. I am sure you can do it if you had the contacts with hardware manufacturers.

It probably wouldn't, but why aren't anybody at least offering it if it wasn't that hard? I don't see the problem for HP to just offer machines preloaded with eaiser SUSE or Mandriva on their website.

Dan talk about OS-less laptops like Asus, have u tried contact their danish heaquarter?

Call HP, IBM, Dell and ask for a Linux whatever, and if they don't know just insist till they tell u why and when will be available.

Let me assure you, I've tried calling like every company that sells PCs in Denmark, and holy moly, I always get the same answers: "We have no plans to ship Linux PCs".

This are not my words but some of this conclusions have come from Marcel Gagne, and John Maddog who well tell that a cosumer has a responsability to let the providers help them.

Yeah, but one customer aren't enough to open the manufacturers' eyes, it would have to be like 200 customers calling them everyday, and that can't just include geeks, that would have to be non-experienced users as well, and almost none in that class in Denmark, knows about Linux, sadly.

I think this whining for lack of products is a business opportunity. Since you can be the provider.

I've been thinking the same thing.

I know you are 14

DUDE I'M 17! AND IN 7 MONTHS I'LL BE 18!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you can already build a desktop machine, and you can also build a website, so there is really nothing much holding you back to at least put a storefront on the web.

In Denmark we have a certificate called "e-mærket" or "the e mark", if you will, in english, and that's something online stores can get so that the customer is assured safety on that store, and that certificate is offered by an organization quite close to the government, and it's very hard to get customers to buy from a site that doesn't have it. Also, this is not something I could do myself, and when I talk to my mum about Linux being better than Windows, she just kind of roll her eyes, she say she don't, and it looks like she thinks "Those crazy teenagers have so many weird ideas these days!", and when she responds, she just say "That's good, but there must be a reason why corporations and etc. uses Microsoft....." and then I explain that the schools have no choice, because Microsoft runs a BIG monopoly in Denmark, but she never gets it. Also I think that if you had a non-experienced Windows ME user go buy a Linux PC, they'd go "WTF is this?", because they've never seen it before, let alone be not even hearing about Linux!!!!!!! I think what Linux needs is marketing, and A LOT of it!!

[Jza]

Yes but unless u can't MAKE A LOT, there is nothing u can do here. Thats what Linspire wants to make a lot and sell them and they went on tour through europe to exactly do that, make contract with vendors so they can push it.

The marketing strategy is sell to 'new' computer users that wont go WTF on you. And also make them as easy as possible in the beginning.

Yeah stop winning about the root thing, because running as root is not as important when u won't even see a command line.

Most users won't even know what is root and what is a user, let say linspire wasn't build as a multi-user machine.

[Tsuroerusu]

The marketing strategy is sell to 'new' computer users that wont go WTF on you. And also make them as easy as possible in the beginning.

Yeah, but pretty much all people who even want to use a computer has already tried using Windows, at least in the US, and western Europe. So it doesn't really matter, most people will still go "WTF" if they don't REALLY know they're buying a computer not preloaded with Windows.

Yeah stop winning about the root thing, because running as root is not as important when u won't even see a command line.

LOL, me whining about a Linux distribution I won't ever use? I'm not whining I just point out why I don't like Linspire. And by the way, running as root leaves people susceptible to buffer overflows in Firefox, Konqueror (Remember that recent big flaw in Konqueror) and whatever browser.

Most users won't even know what is root and what is a user, let say linspire wasn't build as a multi-user machine.

One of the fundemental flaw of Windows, is that it runs as root by default, and most things don't work so well when not running as root, I think it's just plain dumb doing things that way.

[CptnObvious999]

Yes running as root is a huge security risk. If someone exploits firefox your home directory gets destroyed, but if you run it as root your whole system gets destroyed, including the home directories of any other users. Plus if you run as root a rootkit could be installed doing anything it wants. Remember the less the priviledges the better.

[Tsuroerusu]

Plus if you run as root a rootkit could be installed doing anything it wants.

Good point, which leads me to mention that if Windows weren't running as root, the Sony rootkit can be installed.

[Jza]

Yes running as root is a huge security risk. If someone exploits firefox your home directory gets destroyed, but if you run it as root your whole system gets destroyed, including the home directories of any other users. Plus if you run as root a rootkit could be installed doing anything it wants. Remember the less the priviledges the better.

And how many people u know that happened to their system? Or rather how many linspire people got their machine explode by a rootkit.

Because thats the important question, not how much probabilty there is but how many casualties have been out there.