Mepis will now use Ubuntu as a base

[Judland]

Their exact system requirements for 10.0 reads, off of the box I bought:
"System Requirements
SUSE Linux 10.0 supports most PC hardware components. The following requirements should be met to ensure smooth operation of SUSE Linux. Processor: Intel Pentium® 1-4 or Xeon; AMD: Duron, Athlon, Athlon XP, Athlon MP, Athlon 64, Sempron or Opteron. Main memory: 256 MB (minimum), 512 MB (recommended). Hard disk: 500 MB (minimum), 2.5 GB (recommended). SUSE Linux supports most modern sound and graphics cards. For complete system requirements, visit: http://www.opensuse.org/sysreqs"

As I mentioned months ago, SUSE's install kacked on me each and every time on my PII, 400Mhz, 196MB of RAM box. It's a test machine, but other "modern" distros (like Knoppix, Kanotix, Slackware, Arch) have installed on it just fine and were actually kind of "snappy", considering the hardware.

But, this is another topic.

[Tsuroerusu]

As I mentioned months ago, SUSE's install kacked on me each and every time on my PII, 400Mhz, 196MB of RAM box. It's a test machine, but other "modern" distros (like Knoppix, Kanotix, Slackware, Arch) have installed on it just fine and were actually kind of "snappy", considering the hardware.

But, this is another topic.

Okay I see, sounds kinda a weird why it would do that, but nothing is perfect, not even SUSE

Anyway, since Novell opened SUSE up, it has actually spawned some sub-projects that aim to optimize the performance of SUSE and cut the install down to a single disk, although providing only a KDE desktop on one disk and GNOME on another disk, the main reason why SUSE now requires three disks, is that they did want to cut it down, but they really can't get it down to two, they explained this at FOSDEM, because out of the box they install both KDE and GNOME stuff, for example if you choose to use KDE then it will install some GNOME libraries in order to provide Firefox, RealPlayer and a few other GTK apps.

One of the sub projects is called SUPER, which stands for SUSE Performance Enhanced Release, if you want to check it out, you can do so right here: http://opensuse.linux.co.nz/ftp/pub/SUP ... ed-kde.iso

It's not yet as polished and well integrated as the official SUSE, since it's strictly a project by individuals, I doubt it goes through the same testing that irons out the bugs either, so keep that in mind if any one wants to check it out, I don't know if it includes the full YaST control center, I think it includes some of it, but not necessarily all the modules.

[Judland]

Thanks!

As I mentioned above, I don't blame SUSE in any way for setting a little higher standards for their distro. Linux is about choice.

[Tsuroerusu]

Thanks!

No problem man, I actually wonder why I havn't mentioned SUPER before, it must have completely slipped my mind.

And Jud', just as a quick note if you try out SUPER, if you don't like YaST's package manager, just use it to install apt, which should be located at the main SUSE repository (Here's a little guide to adding YaST sources: http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/16592.html) which you can add to YaST by using this information:

Type: FTP
Server Name: sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Directory: pub/linux/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.0-OSS/inst-source

In case you want some of the proprietary plugins, such as Flash, Java etc. you can add these two YaST sources:

Type: FTP
Server Name: sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Directory: pub/linux/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.0-OSS/inst-source-java

Type: FTP
Server Name: sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Directory: pub/linux/suse/i386/10.0/inst-source-extra

If you want some of the controversial packages, such as mad, mplayer and all that good stuff, you just add these:

Type: FTP
Server Name: ftp4.gwdg.de
Directory: pub/linux/misc/suser-guru/rpm/10.0

Type: FTP
Server Name: ftp4.gwdg.de
Directory: pub/linux/misc/packman/suse/10.0

Type: FTP
Server Name: ftp4.gwdg.de
Directory: pub/linux/misc/suser-scorot/suse100

Type: FTP
Server Name: ftp4.gwdg.de
Directory: pub/linux/usr-local-bin/10.0

Type: FTP
Server Name: ftp4.gwdg.de
Directory: pub/linux/misc/suser-oc2pus/10.0

Since SUSE 10.0 was released last October it uses KDE 3.4.2, there are very good KDE 3.5.1 packages available right here:

Type: FTP
Server Name: ftp4.gwdg.de
Directory: pub/linux/suse/ftp.suse.com/suse/i386/supplementary/KDE/update_for_10.0/yast-source

If you choose to install apt and use that do all the installation of stuff, you certainly can do so, my sources.list file looks like this:

Code: Select all

# A very basic sources.list file.
# Remove "base" in case you are behind a slow connection.
# Fastest repository comes first, with netselect it is possible to determine
# the fastest repository easily.
# Visit the server to determine which apt components are provided.
rpm ftp://ftp4.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/ SuSE/10.0-i386 base update security java extra suser-guru packman suser-scorot usr-local-bin suser-oc2pus rpmkeys

# The list with all available components can be found at:
# http://linix01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm
# Some components provide experimental software, select wisely!
# http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/10.0-i386/examples/sources.list.FTP

# Consult the link above if you want to include uri's for src rpms

Since apt checks the GPG signatures and refuses to install packages with an invalid signature you need the public keys of the packagers, I usually just import them all, at once:

Code: Select all

sudo apt --no-checksig --no-post install rpmkey-suser-oc2pus rpmkey-apcupsd rpmkey-appleonkel rpmkey-bacula rpmkey-funktronics rpmkey-jacklab-admine rpmkey-jacklab-appleonkel rpmkey-jacklab-appleonkel rpmkey-jacklab-metasymbol rpmkey-lmeyer rpmkey-packman rpmkey-stark rpmkey-suse-meissner rpmkey-suse-sndirsch rpmkey-suser-drcux rpmkey-suser-gbv rpmkey-suser-guru rpmkey-suser-jmorris rpmkey-suser-jogley_usr-local-bin rpmkey-suser-liviudm rpmkey-suser-ollakka rpmkey-suser-rbos rpmkey-suser-sbarnin rpmkey-suser-scorot rpmkey-suser-tcousin

As I mentioned above, I don't blame SUSE in any way for setting a little higher standards for their distro. Linux is about choice.

Exactly!
I think the reason SUSE, for a few years now, has set their hardware requirements a little higher than other distros typically do, is that they have pretty much always had a product dedicated towards end users, I mean a consumer level product, and I think they wanted to be able to do a little more eye candy and have they desktop do a few fancy things here and there, but without making the hardware requirements totally crazy, and as I said, even the 9.3 release, which was a little heavy, ran quite well on my 800 MHz machine with 256 MB of RAM.

[snarkout]

Would it really kill us to keep the frigging thread ON TOPIC for once??? Especially if the change is topic is, yet again, going to be to SUSE?

[Tsuroerusu]

Would it really kill us to keep the frigging thread ON TOPIC for once??? Especially if the change is topic is, yet again, going to be to SUSE?

Excuse me Snarkout, just a little side spring, OK back on track: What issues do you see (Please try be precise here) with MEPIS switching to Ubuntu as their foundation?

[Gomer_X]

I'm still not convinced this is a good idea. Ubuntu is already based on Debian testing/unstable, so basing MEPIS on Ubuntu seems like it would create more problems than it would fix. This just means that instead of broken Debian unstable pools, he'll have to deal with broken Ubuntu Dapper pools.

Pretty much how I feel. With Ubuntu mature and ubiquitous, what purpose does Mepis serve, exactly?

[Tsuroerusu]

Pretty much how I feel. With Ubuntu mature and ubiquitous, what purpose does Mepis serve, exactly?

That's an interesting thought, I think it's the way MEPIS has it's KDE set up and the all in all face of the distribution, but then again you could say: With Linspire, Xandros etc. already being in existence, what purpose does Ubuntu serve?

Here's my low down on MEPIS' decision: Ubuntu basically takes a snapshot of Debian's unstable pool every time it's time to do a new release, and then stabilizes it, if there are any issues, and makes in into whatever version rep. we're talking about, for example dapper. I think that the advantage MEPIS will get by using Ubuntu's stable pools (Not their development pools), is that the breakage that made Pat. go to Arch won't be this knife over the neck, because unstable is clearly a development branch, and it can change quite rapidly and having your packages and stuff change dramatically while having the pool being your source of life I think is fundementally flawed. By using the Ubuntu pools, MEPIS can benefit from the Ubuntu people doing all the work in keeping them stable (I doubt the hoary breezy reps. are going to break like unstable did a few months ago), and free of bugs and security issues, while having their own KDE customizations and all in all the same look and feel of the current Debian-based MEPIS versions, but with the Ubuntu base underneath.

Of course, IMHO, they would have to do a little tweaking of the Ubuntu KDE packages, because the way Kubuntu does some thing just suck, that's all i have to say about that.

[snarkout]

Would it really kill us to keep the frigging thread ON TOPIC for once??? Especially if the change is topic is, yet again, going to be to SUSE?

Excuse me Snarkout, just a little side spring, OK back on track: What issues do you see (Please try be precise here) with MEPIS switching to Ubuntu as their foundation?

The only issue I'd see with it is that mepis is now one layer removed from debian, so not only are debian bugs going to be rolled into mepis, but ubuntu bugs as well. I also think it's kind of absurd to base a disro on a distro based on another distro.

[Judland]

Sounds to me like Ubuntu is trying to become the new Debian.

[Tsuroerusu]

The only issue I'd see with it is that mepis is now one layer removed from debian, so not only are debian bugs going to be rolled into mepis, but ubuntu bugs as well.

Well, MEPIS is "one more" Debian-compatible, Debian-based distro, but to be honest, MEPIS tries to be very user friendly, and that is not something Debian aims for, Ubuntu does, so they benefit right there from having a foundation that aims to be user friendly. And I doubt that many bugs from Debian is gonna go into MEPIS, and if they do, it'll be fixed within hours, because I think you're thinking that MEPIS will use the development branches of Ubuntu, I think the next release is gonna be called "Edgy Elephant", so I think you imagine MEPIS using the edgy pool before edgy's final release, and that is NOT what I have in mind. Now that dapper is quite close to a final release, and should be quite stable from what I'm hearing from the Ubuntu fanboys, Warren and the MEPIS guys can start building their first Ubuntu-based version of MEPIS, using the dapper pool, and then once dapper is 100% frozen, and only gets changes in case of security patches and serious bugs, MEPIS syncronizes with dapper and then they're based on the latest stable release of Ubuntu, why would that in any way be bad? MEPIS don't even have to fix KDE vulnerabilities because that's something the Kubuntu guys takes care of, and the general components, all the Ubuntu guys takes care of, so in theory they can stop thinking about stability and security after they have a final release out and focus on making a good user experience for the users, since they can work with the latest and greatest KDE, with a quite recent version of hal, dbus..... they can really do a good job of that and make a well integrated and very polished desktop, instead on focusing on warning users against upgrading packages as new ones come into the unstable pool, they can just focus on making the usability better in general. And since MEPIS is KDE based, and has been around for a while, that will help make Kubuntu better, since we now have more people working with the Ubuntu KDE packages, so potential bugs can get fixed faster, if Warren spots one during his development cycles, he can report it to the Kubuntu guys and send a patch along and then the KDE experience for both Kubuntu and Ubuntu users will get better at a faster rate, because MEPIS and Kubuntu have different KDE customizations, Kubuntu tries to cram the Konqueror toolbars and buttons together, while MEPIS has a more default KDE configuration with a weird colored panel with small buttons.

I also think it's kind of absurd to base a disro on a distro based on another distro.

Well, then you need to go slam on the very philosophy of Free software and open source, as this is something sitting right in the heart of the very philosophical side of it, and also in the dynamics of it.
And if you think it's absurd, why don't you yell at the guys doing PCLinuxOS, as they are based on Mandriva, which was originally based on Red Hat? Or the guy that did the "Freespire" thing?

Sounds to me like Ubuntu is trying to become the new Debian.

Well, let's face a fact, Debian's very stable version is not very recent anymore, it's actually ancient compared to SUSE, Fedora, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Kubuntu and a lot of others, to me, Debian is primarily a server distro that aims to be very stable, or a distro for people who needs stability rather than recent versions of software, or people who likes to spend all their time backporting software!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I can certainly understand Ian Murdock's point of Ubuntu diverging from Debian and creating incompatibility and all that stuff, but I think that if we want to have a very good, desktop focused, easy to use distro based on Debian, we need something like Ubuntu. One of the reasons why I prefer RPM based distros like Fedora, Mandriva and SUSE is because the software they include are much much more recent, typically, than the software Debian has, even in it's testing pool (I don't want a distro that's basically a timebomb, and in my mind that's what unstable-based distros are like, just ask Pat, he ran KANOTIX for a while) it takes weeks, if not months for a new version of KDE, GNOME, OpenOffice etc. to get in, even FreeBSD, which too aims to be VERY stable, does this faster, it only took them two days to get KDE 3.5.1 into the ports tree, and they had packages available a few hours after that. With most of the big RPM based distros (I don't know if Fedora does this, Mandriva don't, but SUSE do) make new stable RPMs available for early adopters when a new version of KDE, GNOME or Xorg is released, which you can just point the package manager to and it will go and upgrade your packages, and it won't be a timebomb, because it's not a development branch your're installing off of.

OK, I'm done ranting, I'm sure you guys need some water.

[snarkout]

The only issue I'd see with it is that mepis is now one layer removed from debian, so not only are debian bugs going to be rolled into mepis, but ubuntu bugs as well.

...diatribe...

Sure, maybe. Maybe not. I wasn't contending anything other than there are bugs in debian, and ubuntu creates some bugs of it's own - Warren will either have to fix these himself, or wait until these bugs are fixed. Fixing some things may break other things - my point is that he now has two layers of abstraction to deal with rather than one. If it turns out to be a good move, then bully for Mepis. You asked for my thoughts.

I also think it's kind of absurd to base a disro on a distro based on another distro.

Well, then you need to go slam on the very philosophy of Free software and open source, as this is something sitting right in the heart of the very philosophical side of it, and also in the dynamics of it.
And if you think it's absurd, why don't you yell at the guys doing PCLinuxOS, as they are based on Mandriva, which was originally based on Red Hat? Or the guy that did the "Freespire" thing?

Piffle. For me to say that it's kind of absurd to actively base a distro on ubuntu, which itself is currently actively basing itself on debian is not "slamming" or "flaming" anyone. PCLinuxOS and Freespire are not at all similar, for obvious reasons. Beyond that, yes, I do think that all of the incest among linux distros *can* be a bad thing. IMO it's absurd that flash on SUSE (according to your good self) and Fedora (I've seen it myself) works perfectly, while on several other distros it's out of sync in seconds. One of the tennets of F/OSS is supposed to be that no problem needs solving twice. It doesn't work out that way in reality. This is a weakness. I also do freely admit that I think there is a tremendous amount of freeloading going on in the free software world, both by end users and by several "distros." This is also a weakness.

[Tsuroerusu]

You asked for my thoughts.

Sure and good thing you layed them out, let's see what happens.

Piffle. For me to say that it's kind of absurd to actively base a distro on ubuntu, which itself is currently actively basing itself on debian is not "slamming" or "flaming" anyone. PCLinuxOS and Freespire are not at all similar, for obvious reasons. Beyond that, yes, I do think that all of the incest among linux distros *can* be a bad thing. IMO it's absurd that flash on SUSE (according to your good self) and Fedora (I've seen it myself) works perfectly, while on several other distros it's out of sync in seconds. One of the tennets of F/OSS is supposed to be that no problem needs solving twice. It doesn't work out that way in reality. This is a weakness. I also do freely admit that I think there is a tremendous amount of freeloading going on in the free software world, both by end users and by several "distros." This is also a weakness.

Well, what we really need is a successful LSB thing, which 3.0 might be, so that a company like Adobe can package an application be sure it works on all distros that are LSB certified. And then we just need to get rid of the interfaces on the programs that have bad interfaces such as the Gimp, holy crap, all my friends who use Photoshop moain about that.