Biting the hand that feeds

[chuck]

Well first of all, I never did call you guys names. The closest that I came was saying that if you felt hostility to your listeners and kept doing it, that would make you idiots in my eyes.

The podcast thing, well here's my understanding. A podcast is an audio (or video in many circles) file that is delivered via a RSS, or similar, feed. Your MP3 of the live show comes to me in that manner. It is consumed here as a podcast. How it was originally recorded is not important.

For the quality of the audio, that's on you guys. I understand that you all are not professional broadcasters. If there were occasional problems, that's one thing. But when it goes week to week being a total crap shoot between listenable and not, there's gotta be something that can be done to up the consistancy. You all keep saying that you've been doing this longer than the other Linux shows around. You can not prove that to me based on the quality variances.

As for hating your show, that's not the case. There's alot that I don't like about it. But I do like the interviews you guys do when the audio quality allows them to flow well.

If you want to dismiss me as a troll, that's fine. I won't care. But I don't think that I'm saying anything unfair in my posts on this thread. I have spoken my mind on the show, but they are my opinions. And as you know, everyone has one. If you don't like mine, sorry. But just because I listen to your show and like one bit doesn't mean I have to like it all.

If you only want people to post that agree with you on everything let me know. I won't post with anything but the party line opinions in the future.

As for posting, well if I feel moved to post something I will. This thread had something for me to speak to. If I see something else, I'll post on that.

[CptnObvious999]

Well first of all, I never did call you guys names. The closest that I came was saying that if you felt hostility to your listeners and kept doing it, that would make you idiots in my eyes.

The podcast thing, well here's my understanding. A podcast is an audio (or video in many circles) file that is delivered via a RSS, or similar, feed. Your MP3 of the live show comes to me in that manner. It is consumed here as a podcast. How it was originally recorded is not important.

For the quality of the audio, that's on you guys. I understand that you all are not professional broadcasters. If there were occasional problems, that's one thing. But when it goes week to week being a total crap shoot between listenable and not, there's gotta be something that can be done to up the consistancy. You all keep saying that you've been doing this longer than the other Linux shows around. You can not prove that to me based on the quality variances.

As for hating your show, that's not the case. There's alot that I don't like about it. But I do like the interviews you guys do when the audio quality allows them to flow well.

If you want to dismiss me as a troll, that's fine. I won't care. But I don't think that I'm saying anything unfair in my posts on this thread. I have spoken my mind on the show, but they are my opinions. And as you know, everyone has one. If you don't like mine, sorry. But just because I listen to your show and like one bit doesn't mean I have to like it all.

If you only want people to post that agree with you on everything let me know. I won't post with anything but the party line opinions in the future.

As for posting, well if I feel moved to post something I will. This thread had something for me to speak to. If I see something else, I'll post on that.

Fair enough. Yes the interviews do become bad quality sometimes but thats more of the ISP's fault I think and when it is really bad I just turn down the stream and talk to people on the IRC, you can meet some very cool people there that have a lot to say about Linux.

[Judland]

For the quality of the audio, that's on you guys. I understand that you all are not professional broadcasters. If there were occasional problems, that's one thing. But when it goes week to week being a total crap shoot between listenable and not, there's gotta be something that can be done to up the consistancy.

You seem pretty critical. You must know something about what it all takes to put a show like this together. So, Chuck, what do you suggest to fix this problem? We're all "ears", as they say.

Ooohh, hey, post number 666! Watch out!

[Patrick]

For the quality of the audio, that's on you guys. I understand that you all are not professional broadcasters. If there were occasional problems, that's one thing. But when it goes week to week being a total crap shoot between listenable and not, there's gotta be something that can be done to up the consistancy. You all keep saying that you've been doing this longer than the other Linux shows around. You can not prove that to me based on the quality variances.

The parts we can control have gotten better (thanks to Dan). The interviews via voip will vary depending on the ISP and how much bandwidth is getting pushed out. The only way to fix that part is upgrading our bandwidth which costs money. Any help with this is appreciated.

If you want to dismiss me as a troll, that's fine. I won't care. But I don't think that I'm saying anything unfair in my posts on this thread. I have spoken my mind on the show, but they are my opinions. And as you know, everyone has one. If you don't like mine, sorry. But just because I listen to your show and like one bit doesn't mean I have to like it all.

If you only want people to post that agree with you on everything let me know. I won't post with anything but the party line opinions in the future.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your own opinion and are free to express it. If you come here solely to bust our balls and appear belligerent and condescending expect to get some flack from us. It's part of the game. Bottom line is you and anyone else are always welcome to post here.

[Gomer_X]

For the quality of the audio, that's on you guys. I understand that you all are not professional broadcasters. If there were occasional problems, that's one thing. But when it goes week to week being a total crap shoot between listenable and not, there's gotta be something that can be done to up the consistancy. You all keep saying that you've been doing this longer than the other Linux shows around. You can not prove that to me based on the quality variances.

I think you're under the mistaken impression that TLLTS exists to meet your needs. Listen to what meets your standards. Don't expect what you want to listen to to conform itself to your standards.

The guys who create this program are doing as much as they have the time and ability to do. They are giving to you. You don't have to take it if you don't like what they're giving.

The world will almost certainly never revolve around you. Your life will be happier when you accept that.

[Ruhar]

I personally love the show. I think its real and down to earth. I listen to other podcasts (or .mp3s, etc.) that are more 'polished' and are strictly focusing on the technical content of a programming language or development platform for example. Please keep doing what you're doing. You guys are punk rock!!

[tirespeed]

First, I'd like to say that I've listened to the show for quite awhile. Not from the beginning, but I have an hour drive each way to work, so I did go back and listen to the shows I missed.

I think you guys have an excellent show. Unlike some I LIKE the banter including the beer and cigar conversations! I've jumped in the IRC channel (as dean) to ask a few questions about the show hardware/software setup because the only criticism that I believe has any merit is the sound quality issue.

Over the years the sound has gotten better, the mics help, and the compressor helps knock down Dann yelling when he gets excited.

The large issue for me would be the long pauses in the interviews only because I think that can be avoided.

Pinging thelinuxlink.net results in about 57ms avg.

While the show is going on, does anyone check the latency to any common internet sites before and during the streaming and asterisk call?

The asterisk connection to a guest should not be more than ~80kb/s each way assuming ulaw as a codec. However, if any of the other members of the show are not at Dann's house, that would add another ~80kb/s for each connection. How much bandwidth do you have each way?

Just curious, how many simultaneous streams do you guys get each week?

Dean

[chuck]

You seem pretty critical. You must know something about what it all takes to put a show like this together. So, Chuck, what do you suggest to fix this problem? We're all "ears", as they say.

I do know some generalities. I've never been an audiophile, but I have seen my friends and some of thier bands record.

Some ideas I have, off the top of my head:

When you find the 'sweet spot' for micing and recording a particular persons voice make a note of it for future use.

If you're going to be using Asterix (or other VoIP software) there are methods to configure the router to optimize the traffic. Granted the router also has to be configured for the broadcasting as well, but the boys have decided how they want to do things.

And for phone interviews landlines still work rather well and are easily monitored for the broadcast and recorded.

[chuck]

I think you're under the mistaken impression that TLLTS exists to meet your needs. Listen to what meets your standards. Don't expect what you want to listen to to conform itself to your standards.

The guys who create this program are doing as much as they have the time and ability to do. They are giving to you. You don't have to take it if you don't like what they're giving.

The world will almost certainly never revolve around you. Your life will be happier when you accept that.

Well it's here to meet my needs as a listener. You and others seem to be under the impression that I'm here just to bitch about things. If I didn't care about the show (at least the interviews) I wouldn't be here at all, taking time to complain about what I don't like.

I'm offering my views here simply because the only other things I see in the forums typically is how great the show is. I see room for improvement and want the guys to know that not all the listeners are happy happy about what's being given, that there's room to improve.

And yes, the world already does revolve around me. Once I thought it didn't, and the whole universe started to disappear....

[Linc]

Some ideas I have, off the top of my head:
When you find the 'sweet spot' for micing and recording a particular persons voice make a note of it for future use.

There is no such thing. We go a week in between shows and there are numerous things that can change between sets. Even the humidity and ambient room noise has to be adjusted for each time. You can't just "leave things set" because we do not work in a recording studio.

If you're going to be using Asterix (or other VoIP software) there are methods to configure the router to optimize the traffic. Granted the router also has to be configured for the broadcasting as well, but the boys have decided how they want to do things.

That sounds great except it's not true. For one, it's DSL and on a modem, not a router. Even if it were though, it's terribly dificult to do traffic shaping and have it be correct, and even harder to do so with a limited amound of bandwidth. I have some really expensive cisco equipment at work that can't manage to get traffic shaping right for voip either, so this isn't just a TechShow issue.

And for phone interviews landlines still work rather well and are easily monitored for the broadcast and recorded.

This assumption is where people get into real trouble. Since we do a live show what we really need, if not going digital, is a phone hybrid. You see phones have built in feedback loops, not to mention varying voltages and multiple grounds to contend with while doing recordings. This is why early on, most "podcasters" that tried this started doing "double enders" where each party recorded their own side of a conversation and they just pieced them together from the two files for their "podcast". It's one of the only ways to guarantee a good recording - but as I said, we don't have that luxury being a live show. Phone hybrids can cost thousands of dollars and we don't have that either. Our only real solution was to use an asterisk box or skype or something similar. Unfortunately, these can have tremendous lag issues due to sound compression on both ends, lack of bandwidth, fidgety codecs, and even crappy phone connections at not only the switch, but also the consumer end (just like everyone else).

So, you see things are not as cut and dry as you might think. Nor have we not done any research on the subject, after all, we have been doing this longer than anyone else has. And before you go comparing our show to anyone elses, let me challenge you with actually comparing apples to apples. You see, you need to compare us with another live internet broadcast done each week on no money with cheap equipment and no post production that makes their show available within 2 hours of the original broadcast for people to download. Oh, and even if you don't add gracious and driven enough to put 700 hours into the process you won't find any to compare us with, because there simply aren't any others that fit the bill.

Now I appreciate constructive criticism as much as the next guy, and if we didn't listen to feedback from our listeners to some extent we probebly would not still be doing this for so long. However, it's very easy to play armchair expert here and I see that happening a lot. If you fit into that category, perhaps you might want to rethink your position that you could do better - because you can't... Not without a great deal of money that neither of us has, because if you did, you'd be too busy doing something with that to listen to us.

And just for the record, those people who actually *have* taken the time to do a "podcast" on a regular basis and know *something* about what we actually do here have *always* sent us mail praising us, asking for tips and wondering how we kept it up for so long.

That's it on this subject for me.

[kbrown3074]

Yea..what Linc said.

I dont know my head from my ass...just wanted to chime in

[chuck]

There is no such thing. We go a week in between shows and there are numerous things that can change between sets. Even the humidity and ambient room noise has to be adjusted for each time. You can't just "leave things set" because we do not work in a recording studio.

There is a baseline for recording in any area. I can't believe that in any area that you record in regularly you can't start from the last settings and be damn close the following week. I know alot of people who do home recording and they aren't that far off from thier base settings from one session to another.

If you're going to be using Asterix (or other VoIP software) there are methods to configure the router to optimize the traffic. Granted the router also has to be configured for the broadcasting as well, but the boys have decided how they want to do things.

That sounds great except it's not true. For one, it's DSL and on a modem, not a router. Even if it were though, it's terribly dificult to do traffic shaping and have it be correct, and even harder to do so with a limited amound of bandwidth. I have some really expensive cisco equipment at work that can't manage to get traffic shaping right for voip either, so this isn't just a TechShow issue.

That's bull. I've done shaping for VoIP quality at my brother's place where he had a DSL modem. I had to use 3rd party OSS firmware on the router between his network and the modem to get it right, but after the configs were done, it improved the quality of VoIP calls.

I work with Cisco engineers setting up VoIP networks and have seen them sitting with the router configs to get the shaping right.

Don't tell me it's not possible to do. A quick Google search on VoIP traffic shaping turns up a lot of info on the subject.

And for phone interviews landlines still work rather well and are easily monitored for the broadcast and recorded.

This assumption is where people get into real trouble. Since we do a live show what we really need, if not going digital, is a phone hybrid. You see phones have built in feedback loops, not to mention varying voltages and multiple grounds to contend with while doing recordings.

Again, there are ways to record land line calls. I've got an uncle who was a lawyer. Some 6-7 years ago I remember him having a device that he would use at his home office that plugged in between the handset and the base. It had a plug coming off of it that he connected into his mini tape recorder. I'd imagine that with little to no effort you could take that plug and pt it into your board or sound card to get that audio off the call to hear the callers and a speaker phone so that the caller can hear your guys.

However, it's very easy to play armchair expert here and I see that happening a lot. If you fit into that category, perhaps you might want to rethink your position that you could do better - because you can't... Not without a great deal of money that neither of us has, because if you did, you'd be too busy doing something with that to listen to us.

It's not that I have a great deal of money that I'm not too busy to listen to you. It's that I have enough money that I have enough time to listen to you. You don't have to always be busy to have money.

[Linc]

There is a baseline for recording in any area. I can't believe that in any area that you record in regularly you can't start from the last settings and be damn close the following week. I know alot of people who do home recording and they aren't that far off from thier base settings from one session to another.

It's a lot easier said than done and I am sure they do not have our unique setup. For one, we do not have the same setup every week. People call in from different locations, use different software, different phon ehardware from different parts of the world. Where is the baseline in that.

That's bull. I've done shaping for VoIP quality at my brother's place where he had a DSL modem. I had to use 3rd party OSS firmware on the router between his network and the modem to get it right, but after the configs were done, it improved the quality of VoIP calls.
I work with Cisco engineers setting up VoIP networks and have seen them sitting with the router configs to get the shaping right.

Listen, we are not talking about tryin to get Vonage running at your cousins house while he's surfing. It's a lot more touchy than you make it out to be, especially with our bandwidth needs and allocation.

Don't tell me it's not possible to do. A quick Google search on VoIP traffic shaping turns up a lot of info on the subject.

Didn't say it wasn't possible.. Said it was dificult and doesn't work well.

Again, there are ways to record land line calls. I've got an uncle who was a lawyer. Some 6-7 years ago I remember him having a device that he would use at his home office that plugged in between the handset and the base. It had a plug coming off of it that he connected into his mini tape recorder. I'd imagine that with little to no effort you could take that plug and pt it into your board or sound card to get that audio off the call to hear the callers and a speaker phone so that the caller can hear your guys.

Again, what we do here is like a radio station. We cannot simply pump a phone line into a tape recorder. That's not at all how things work with live audio.

[chuck]

There is a baseline for recording in any area. I can't believe that in any area that you record in regularly you can't start from the last settings and be damn close the following week. I know alot of people who do home recording and they aren't that far off from thier base settings from one session to another.

It's a lot easier said than done and I am sure they do not have our unique setup. For one, we do not have the same setup every week. People call in from different locations, use different software, different phon ehardware from different parts of the world. Where is the baseline in that.

But the point is that your equipment does not change. Grabbing the output is the same from your gear each week.

That's bull. I've done shaping for VoIP quality at my brother's place where he had a DSL modem. I had to use 3rd party OSS firmware on the router between his network and the modem to get it right, but after the configs were done, it improved the quality of VoIP calls.
I work with Cisco engineers setting up VoIP networks and have seen them sitting with the router configs to get the shaping right.

Listen, we are not talking about tryin to get Vonage running at your cousins house while he's surfing. It's a lot more touchy than you make it out to be, especially with our bandwidth needs and allocation.

Don't tell me it's not possible to do. A quick Google search on VoIP traffic shaping turns up a lot of info on the subject.

Didn't say it wasn't possible.. Said it was dificult and doesn't work well.

First, had it been as simple as hooking up Vonage for my brother, that would have been easier. But that's not the set up that I was dealing with.

And it's because of your bandwidth needs and limits that shaping is that much more important to work on in your situation. I'm not saying that it's easy, but I am saying that it will help. If it didn't work well, people wouldn't work on it so much.

Again, there are ways to record land line calls. I've got an uncle who was a lawyer. Some 6-7 years ago I remember him having a device that he would use at his home office that plugged in between the handset and the base. It had a plug coming off of it that he connected into his mini tape recorder. I'd imagine that with little to no effort you could take that plug and pt it into your board or sound card to get that audio off the call to hear the callers and a speaker phone so that the caller can hear your guys.

Again, what we do here is like a radio station. We cannot simply pump a phone line into a tape recorder. That's not at all how things work with live audio.

And that's why I never suggested you plug the cable into a tape recorder. Read what I wrote, not what you want to see.

[johnnywtllts]

Did I miss something, or has there been a show recently that someone has had trouble hearing the interviews? I haven't missed a show for a few months now and have been successful, as far as I can recall, $30 Tiawanese MP3 player and all.

I think the caliber of your guests speak loads about your credibility and success in the Linux Community. It's ironic that you'd get such a reception at the LXer forum (when you had the recent interview with two of the major players there Dave and Tom?) and the same on the Ubuntu forums after doing the interview with Mark.

Sound quality -Schmound quality. Aren't Tech shows in general about sharing information? And much more a Linux Tech Show. I'm here to learn what you have to share and I can hear you fine. Thanks again.