WWDC! Hold me Back Baby, it's on fire

[dann]

Wow, I have to admit; all this innovation going into Leopard just floors me. I mean, Spaces. Wow; Apple developed virtual desktops. I don't know what I was doing the past 7 years. Now that apple has developed virtual desktops I have to have them!

On a more serious note, Time Machine looks nice. Although to me it feels like they created a personal backup system that makes use of cvs or subversion then slapped a nice gui on top of it. Windows users call it Goback but sacrifice the slickness for a more pedestrian look.

Boot campe will be included in Leopard. Now I recall for years pundits complaining that people will never want to dual boot Linux and windows; they'd just run windows instead or use vmware to run windows inside linux or vice-versa. But now apple comes out with bootcamp or there is parallels and dualbooting/virtualization are the big thing!

I guess Apple can do no wrong, especially when they are stealing ideas from the Unix community.

[Patrick]

Hold your tongue heathen!!

[CptnObvious999]

ZOMG VIRTUAL DESKOPS!

haha. I love how Apple whores are so ignorant and yet they choose to stay that way. When you tell them Linux has had some feature Mac doesn't they cover their ears and jump off a bridge.

(I don't hate the OS as much as the fanclub, but I do hate both )

[Tsuroerusu]

Boot campe will be included in Leopard. Now I recall for years pundits complaining that people will never want to dual boot Linux and windows; they'd just run windows instead or use vmware to run windows inside linux or vice-versa. But now apple comes out with bootcamp or there is parallels and dualbooting/virtualization are the big thing!

I guess Apple can do no wrong, especially when they are stealing ideas from the Unix community.

!!! My sentiment exactly !!!

This is one of the things that Leo Laporte totally pissed me off with, sure I was listening to his radio show so it's kind of my own fault, but I hate people spreading FUD!

Leo is like this "Ohh, Apple has switched to Intel, now you can run Windows AND Mac OS X!! You can do this and this, *it's so good*, you can dual boot and everything is great!".
My reaction was like: "LINUX DID THAT THREE FUCKIN' YEARS AGO!!!", it just baffles me how much of an Apple whore Leo is, and how incompetent or out of touch he is with Linux, because dual booting is a no brainer today! I havn't tried dual booting Ubuntu so I can't speak about that, but with SUSE you just install Windows, leave some empty space, and YaST will see the empty space and just do everything automatically, no fuss no muss! Plus if you don't have free space, it'll just automatically resize your C drive to make some free space, it has done this since version 8.2 or something, which came out on the 7th of April 2003!!!

[Patrick]

This is one of the things that Leo Laporte totally pissed me off with, sure I was listening to his radio show so it's kind of my own fault, but I hate people spreading FUD!

Leo is like this "Ohh, Apple has switched to Intel, now you can run Windows AND Mac OS X!! You can do this and this, *it's so good*, you can dual boot and everything is great!".
My reaction was like: "LINUX DID THAT THREE FUCKIN' YEARS AGO!!!", it just baffles me how much of an Apple whore Leo is, and how incompetent or out of touch he is with Linux, because dual booting is a no brainer today!

Did you listen to the last episode where Cory Doctorow was on? He mentioned that he runs Linux on his think pad and did a pretty decent job of attacking Apple and their proprietary silo. Dvorak is a tool but at least he's a tool who can't stand the Apple fanboys either! He's like Leo's conscience when he starts wetting his pants when talking about Apple. Dvorak reigns him back in so he does have some use on that show.

[Tsuroerusu]

Did you listen to the last episode where Cory Doctorow was on?

Oh yeah, that moment where Cory praised Linux was great, he totally caught Leo off guard in an area where he obviously has ZERO expertise.

He mentioned that he runs Linux on his think pad and did a pretty decent job of attacking Apple and their proprietary silo.

Yeah, he was like "everything works, and it's great!" and Leo's reaction was so clueless I almost thought he said "Did you memory controller work?" when he said "even the wireless?".

Dvorak is a tool but at least he's a tool who can't stand the Apple fanboys either! He's like Leo's conscience when he starts wetting his pants when talking about Apple. Dvorak reigns him back in so he does have some use on that show.

Absolutely, Dvorak may have some weird thoughts at times, but he sure has some great ones too, actually I think he has some good points at times. A moment of that episode of TWiT, that I thought was priceless, was when Leo was kinda digressing the whole "Lenovo preloading SUSE" into his usual Mac topic, Dvorak was like "You know I find.. there's something interesting about this conversation because somehow Leo has switched back to talking about the Macintosh again." . I thought those five or eight seconds was priceless!

[Wally Balljacker]

Yeah, he was like "everything works, and it's great!" and Leo's reaction was so clueless I almost thought he said "Did you memory controller work?" when he said "even the wireless?".

Hold on a second here. I think you're being alittle too critical of Leo. Wireless on Linux is not easy in most cases. Cory just HAPPENED to have a ThinkPad with Intel Pro Wireless which also happens to work out of the box on most distributions, including Ubuntu. Leo had a completely valid concern regarding wireless. Pick up any random WiFi card at a computer store, and in 90% of the cases, it will not work out of the box with zero configuration, and in some cases it will not work at all.

[Tsuroerusu]

Hold on a second here. I think you're being alittle too critical of Leo. Wireless on Linux is not easy in most cases. Cory just HAPPENED to have a ThinkPad with Intel Pro Wireless which also happens to work out of the box on most distributions, including Ubuntu. Leo had a completely valid concern regarding wireless. Pick up any random WiFi card at a computer store, and in 90% of the cases, it will not work out of the box with zero configuration, and in some cases it will not work at all.

Sure, wireless is not easy, but the Centrino wireless cards have worked perfect out of the box for almost two years! Leo should at least know that much, as he HAS tried SUSE versions since 9.1 and all of those have included the ipw firmware and stuff.

Also, the way you handle the wireless issue on Linux is to just buy a card that works, if you have an Atheros card, which are not hard to find, it'll work fine if your distro, or it's community makes madwifi packages available, not any harder to install than on Windows.
In Ubuntu they include the madwifi drivers (GPL violation) so it'll work fine, on SUSE you add http://madwifi.org/suse to the package manager and install two packages and the thing works, samething for Fedora with the Livna repository.

And no, I don't assert that my mom could do this, but the people who can install anti-spyware programs and scan through their system etc. etc. could do this.

[schotty]

Hold on a second here. I think you're being alittle too critical of Leo. Wireless on Linux is not easy in most cases. Cory just HAPPENED to have a ThinkPad with Intel Pro Wireless which also happens to work out of the box on most distributions, including Ubuntu. Leo had a completely valid concern regarding wireless. Pick up any random WiFi card at a computer store, and in 90% of the cases, it will not work out of the box with zero configuration, and in some cases it will not work at all.

I agree with you. Leo has a family, a radio show, god knows how many podcasts, a network he is building for doing podcasts (TechTV of podcasts essentially), does all the work pre/post production of the casts and is expected to be god on an OS that its apparent he doesnt use? I can barely keep up with Windows and Linux, much less MacOS (just got a MacBook). To be a guru on all that is tech is a wet dream, or you are filthy rich.

As for wifi, here you are absolutely lucky if you can buy a Compaq/HP, Acer, or Gateway that is even possible to be used with a default install. That is what people see at Best Buy, and where most buy their shit from. The amount of work I have done on coworkers machines is jaw dropping (that and the money I could have earned if I was charging). Ubuntu and Linspire are the popular at my work for those that attempt the switch. And I must tell you, the sound cards, wifi, and displays are just painful. To hear a laptop works out of the box tells me that either the lappy is old or its something like the Golden child from IBM or HP that everyone had, or its an Apple (same hardware almost across the product line). My Toshiba barely works, my parter at the welder has a HP that shows things (thats about it, nothing else works right, no xvga or wifi or audio).

Enough of the rant, I need to eat dinner ;D

[Wally Balljacker]

just got a MacBook

Nice, how do you like it? Any plans to run Linux on it? I was considering getting an iBook G4 a few months ago, but ended up getting a ThinkPad instead, due to hardware support.

[Tsuroerusu]

I agree with you. Leo has a family, a radio show, god knows how many podcasts, a network he is building for doing podcasts (TechTV of podcasts essentially), does all the work pre/post production of the casts and is expected to be god on an OS that its apparent he doesnt use?

That's not what I am saying at all, I'm just asking for him to just at least not keep his Linux knowledge two years aged at times!
For example, one thing that pisses me off, is that when talks about dual booting OS X and Windows on one of those new Intel Macs, he's all babbling about how easy it is and so on, and when a guy asked him about SUSE, he immeaditly went into it being hard to install, and always assumes people wanna keep Windows around, and when they do, he immeaditly described it as hard, WHEN IT'S EASIER THAN DUAL BOOTING WITH THIS FREAKING CRAP OS WE CALL MAC OS X!!!

I have heard him explicitly say that he does use Linux, and yet he still seems to know so little about today's Linux and only the Linux of the past. When he tells people that Linux is so and so hard to install and dual boot and all that, I think of it as FUD, because it scares people off from Linux (fear), it makes them even less likely to think outside the world of Microsoft (uncertainty) and I think doubts that developers can actually make things much easier over short periods of time (doubt) and installing Linux has been a piece of cake for over two years now, and dual booting for almost just as long.

I'd rather have him say, when someone asks him about Linux, "I don't really use Linux, so I can't really give you that much advice on it, but you can go here and here to find out about it" and point to a good beginners guide or something (Marcel Gagné's books is a good resource for beginners) than having him spread FUD that he may not mean to spread.

I can barely keep up with Windows and Linux, much less MacOS (just got a MacBook). To be a guru on all that is tech is a wet dream, or you are filthy rich.

That depends, I just read a shitload of news, that's how I keep up with everything, plus with my distro of choice, SUSE, I read it's commit logs and participate in status meetings.

As for wifi, here you are absolutely lucky if you can buy a Compaq/HP, Acer, or Gateway that is even possible to be used with a default install. That is what people see at Best Buy, and where most buy their shat from.

Not true dude, if you go and buy a laptop that has the Intel Centrino certification sticker on it, which tells you that it has an Intel CPU, chipset and WiFi chip, the wireless will work fine, out of the box, on a solid bunch of distros.

The amount of work I have done on coworkers machines is jaw dropping (that and the money I could have earned if I was charging). Ubuntu and Linspire are the popular at my work for those that attempt the switch. And I must tell you, the sound cards, wifi, and displays are just painful.

To hear a laptop works out of the box tells me that either the lappy is old or its something like the Golden child from IBM or HP that everyone had, or its an Apple (same hardware almost across the product line). My Toshiba barely works, my parter at the welder has a HP that shows things (thats about it, nothing else works right, no xvga or wifi or audio).

As I said, Centrino laptops works great, the problem you are more likely to experience is when the guys at ATi havn't kept the Linux driver support up to snuff so that you can't use their latest generations of chips on Linux at all.
And also, if people went to Leo to ask about Linux and they wanted to buy a new computer anyway, he could either tell them what to buy, if they had the skills to install Linux themselves, or just point to freaking Linspire for a pre-installed machine OR, in the future, Lenovo for a ThinkPad with SLED 10, ThinkPads may be a little more expensive than your average piece of shit, chinese slave labor laptop (Isn't that right Pat? ) but they're much cheaper than a freaking CrApple Crapintosh.

[Wally Balljacker]

Tsuroerusu, I listen to Leo's KFI radio show almost every weekend, and Leo certainly has valid reasons for recommending a Mac to alot of people. In a large number of cases, it's simply a better option: it's easy to use, the hardware and software are integrated, it comes with just about all the software one could need pre-installed, and it actually has a version of Flash available for it that was released this century.

For people that actually ask about Linux, Leo always tells them the truth. It can be difficult to install and configure, but if you're willing to download and burn the ISO images, and set up a dual boot yourself, go for it. I've never heard Leo actually discourage someone from using Linux if they're interested, he just makes them aware that problems can arise (just think of all those poor bastards who have WinModems, and unsupported hardware). Leo has said before that the less people use Windows, the better, and I agree with that, be it Mac OS X, Linux, FreeBSD, whatever.

I think we've had this discussion before.

[Tsuroerusu]

Tsuroerusu, I listen to Leo's KFI radio show almost every weekend, and Leo certainly has valid reasons for recommending a Mac to alot of people. In a large number of cases, it's simply a better option: it's easy to use, the hardware and software are integrated, it comes with just about all the software one could need pre-installed, and it actually has a version of Flash available for it that was released this century.

This I can agree with, but that's not to say you'll catch me recommending OS X to anyone or using it myself, because I won't.

For people that actually ask about Linux, Leo always tells them the truth. It can be difficult to install and configure, but if you're willing to download and burn the ISO images, and set up a dual boot yourself, go for it.

See the thing about Linux being difficult to install, I think is a big fat lie!! If you still think so, you need to get away from Debian and try using the easier distros, because if you don't, you keep yourself outdated. I'm not bashing Debian, but using it day in and day out, can easily create a picture in your mind that Linux is difficult to install, AND IT IS NOT!!!

I stand by my saying that anyone who can install Windows can install Linux, I'm not saying you should try to get your mom to install Linux, but people who can install Windows and install anti-virus and Office, can absolutely install SUSE, Mandriva, Fedora or Ubuntu (As long as the new installer doesn't crap out on them during partitioning, which is why I still prefer the Debian-style installer).

I've never heard Leo actually discourage someone from using Linux if they're interested, he just makes them aware that problems can arise (just think of all those poor bastards who have WinModems, and unsupported hardware).

Well, in my opinion it's discouraging to immeaditly get the "it's difficult to install and set up and maybe use", because to me, if you told me that when I was thinking of using Linux because I hated spyware crap, I would be uncertain of my ability to use a computer.

Leo has said before that the less people use Windows, the better, and I agree with that, be it Mac OS X, Linux, FreeBSD, whatever.

I think we've had this discussion before.

Yeah, and we always disagree

I believe that Linux is ready for people who use a computer for browsing the web, read/send email, use a word processor and a spreadsheet, also for people who use their computer to watch videos on, listen to music, store pictures etc. etc. and all these more basic things. This group of people is extremely large, and I think Linux is great for them.
I also think it's semi-ready for a very very very small group of gamers, and I'm thinking of people who buy a game and play it for the next two years, because those people can use Cedega to run that game on Linux, if it's not an MMORPG.
And again, the people who can install Windows can install Linux, people who can't install Windows, can't install Linux, that's my opinion on it.

I don't know what you think, but to me you sound like Linux is still only for geeks, and I strongly disagree with that, because I have seen it work for people with my own eyes, my mom, my sister and my aunt. Sure I set it up for them, but if you think about it, I just acted as the OEM and nothing else, if you buy Linux preinstalled, you're all set!!

[Wally Balljacker]

@ Tsuroerusu

I do think installing and configuring Linux is only for geeks. I would say any advanced Windows user could install and configure a Linux system themselves, but the average non technical user doesn't have a clue how to burn an ISO, or partition a hard drive. I've said it before, Linux will hit mass adoption when companies like Lenovo, HP, and Sony start preinstalling the OS, and promoting it over Windows.

[Tsuroerusu]

@ Tsuroerusu

I do think installing and configuring Linux is only for geeks. I would say any advanced Windows user could install and configure a Linux system themselves, but the average non technical user doesn't have a clue how to burn an ISO, or partition a hard drive. I've said it before, Linux will hit mass adoption when companies like Lenovo, HP, and Sony start preinstalling the OS, and promoting it over Windows.

And I'll say my part again, I don't refer to "the average non technical user doesn't have a clue how to burn an ISO, or partition a hard drive." when I say that Linux is something people can do, I refer to the people who know what to do when their WIndows machine is fucked up, they just insert the CD and go through the process, or people who have a bit of blessed logical sense when it comes to reading what's on the screen and understanding it, when installing Linux is not hard if you can install Windows and just the instructions on the screen. It's hard if computers make as much sense to you as algebra does to me.

Also, for the "logical" people I just described, if they don't know how to burn an ISO, they should certainly know how to shop online and can buy SUSE from Amazon or order an Ubuntu disc from Canonical, and if they picked SUSE; they would get those 90-days of free installation support, so they could be helped through the installation if they have problems.