What is wrong with Mandrake

Jza · Post by **Jza** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:34 pm

Since the last show had a stream blackout I had to wait till today to finally get my hands on the full version of the show and I start listening people bashing Mandrake. I am not sure what problems did linc couldn't solve but Mandrake has had the best response on most of the hardware compared to Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora.

I have been in many installfest where we are able to test the distros on different branded and whiteboxes hardware and we usually find problems with audio or video drivers. Mandriva has been the most consistant. My theory of course is that Mandriva (until recently) was a REAL installation and not those LiveCD types.

The problem with the LiveCDs is space, they have no way to package all those drivers and all the apps and all the system so they have to cutt them short.

This is the main issue that I've seen on people triying LiveCDs in general and that is the result.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:33 am

I fully agree with you Jza, what is wrong with Mandriva?

Sure they may have had a few buggy releases in the past, but none of them has been as bad as Windows ME.

I have tried Mandriva 2006 quite extensively, and it's a very good distro, I don't see what the haps is (I watch too much TMNT).

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:05 am

Tsuroerusu wrote:I fully agree with you Jza, what is wrong with Mandriva?

Sure they may have had a few buggy releases in the past, but none of them has been as bad as Windows ME.

I have tried Mandriva 2006 quite extensively, and it's a very good distro, I don't see what the haps is (I watch too much TMNT).

I think you just answered your own question there. Mandriva has never really been known for its stability. Honestly, what is so great about it? It's not BAD, but why use it? From my experience, it's just another semi-buggy, bloated, KDE-based RedHat derivative. That doesn't sound very appealing to me. I suppose Mandriva would be a good distro for new users who want GUI tools, and hand holding for everything. For me personally, I'd rather use something fast and stable, like Slackware, or Debian with a simple, commandline package manager, and deal with configuration files by hand with a text editor.

Jza · Post by **Jza** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:42 pm

But mandriva is no less buggy than Ubuntu. By buggy i mean that the releases of xorg were crap at one point cuz it had a huge memory leak, that happen when 2006 was realease (1.5 years ago) however so is Ubuntu latest update crapped out the x.

If this is buggy, then all the major distros are buggy also, even debian. So the argument of why use it if it's buggy. Well then why use linux if its buggy.

Post by **Patrick** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:53 pm

Ultimately use the distro that you're the most happiest with. If Mandriva does it for you then stick with it.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:01 pm

Patrick wrote:Ultimately use the distro that you're the most happiest with. If Mandriva does it for you then stick with it.

I think Jza's point was more related to the question of why people mock Mandriva, because >IF< you wanna take it down that road, I could say Ubuntu's KDE support is half-hearted and they lack serious QA when they issue security patches.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:04 pm

There's nothing wrong with Mandriva. I've recently started using it again myself and I find it to be a great OS in it's own right.

I've tried many distros over the last couple of years (Slackware, Debian, Kanotix, Arch, Ubuntu, DSL, Vector, Fedora, Underground). They all have their benefits and I've learned a lot from them. What I've learned most is what I DON'T want in an OS.

I've attempted to try SuSE several times, but I could never finish an install of it as the resources it requires by default are more than what my test box has available.

I've discovered that, althought I prefer to use updated software, I don't really enjoy the "bleeding edge" distros. I don't like having to pussy-foot around with my updates/upgrades and I don't like having to do them too frequently.

I also don't mind losing some speed in order to maintain reliability and ease-of-use. Let's face it, the last time I upgraded my PC was when 1.2GHz was new. I have not updated since and I'm not planning on it in the near future. Blinding speed is not something I'm obsesed about. It was cool to see Arch boot up on my PC in less than 40 seconds, but the maintenance I had to do was too hefty price for me.

Of all the distros. I've tried, Mandriva has the perfect balance for me. It installs the easiest and is the most stable. I've done - or coached - dozens of system updates (on multiple PCs - as I've installed it on several of my co-workers PCs) without any difficulties. I cannot see myself saying the same if I were using many of the other distros. I've mentioned here.

Also, Mandriva has the best support for those darned proprietary drivers, as many of my co-workers seemed to be concerend about watching WMA and DVDs on their PCs.

As a last point, Mandriva also employs several developers of Linux and open source software. What they develop gets turned over to the Linux community so others (including rival distros) can beneifit from it. So, spending money on Mandriva products and services, in my opinion, is a good way to show corporate America that there is money and a living to be made with the Linux and open source business models.

Long winded, I know... but after all is said and done, I think Mandriva has taken - and will still take - the Linux desktop a long way and have been a great foundation and source of inspiration for today's "geek approved" Linux distros.

Jza · Post by **Jza** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:50 pm

My point is the following:

I suppose Mandriva would be a good distro for new users who want GUI tools, and hand holding for everything.

This is a really bad rep, comparing mandriva to ubuntu, a lot of people feel despectively about mandriva, yet they feel so enthusiastic about ubuntu. The funny thing is that mandriva is for the newbie, yet ubuntu also wants to focus on that.

Most people usually bash mandriva because is easy, yet they praise ubuntu because is easy and thats where I

That aside I have never been a fan of distro hopping, being more interested in app hopping. So Mandriva has a huge and stable repository (unless u go to cooker). TUX magazine recomend it as the most user friendly of all the distros above linspire and others. Yet I think many people have a lot of missconseptions about mandriva like a previous post on this forum.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:07 am

Jza wrote:Most people usually bash mandriva because is easy, yet they praise ubuntu because is easy and thats where I

I don't bash Mandriva because it's easy, I bash it because it is bloated, slow, and clunky from my past experiences with it. I tend to gravitate towards Ubuntu because it is extremely easy to use, and at the same time, it's very fast and lightweight, fitting onto a single CD, with a trimmed selection of packages. If I want more packages, I can simply "apt-get install" just about anything I want from the gigantic Apt repository.

Jza · Post by **Jza** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:37 am

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Jza wrote:Most people usually bash mandriva because is easy, yet they praise ubuntu because is easy and thats where I
I don't bash Mandriva because it's easy, I bash it because it is bloated, slow, and clunky from my past experiences with it. I tend to gravitate towards Ubuntu because it is extremely easy to use, and at the same time, it's very fast and lightweight, fitting onto a single CD, with a trimmed selection of packages. If I want more packages, I can simply "apt-get install" just about anything I want from the gigantic Apt repository.

So can you with mandriva, you can install the first cd and urpmi whatever package you need. You were able to do this about 3 years before apt-get was created.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:53 am

Wally Balljacker wrote:I don't bash Mandriva because it's easy, I bash it because it is bloated, slow, and clunky from my past experiences with it.

Which is one reason why Mandriva ONE was put together... so you could use it as a single CD installer and a live CD.

Once installed, simpy urpmi what you want from their repositories. The next release of ONE will also come in KDE and Gnome versions. The big advantage over Ubuntu's releases (referring to Kubuntu here) is that Mandriva's KDE doesn't suck.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:34 am

Judland wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:I don't bash Mandriva because it's easy, I bash it because it is bloated, slow, and clunky from my past experiences with it.
Which is one reason why Mandriva ONE was put together... so you could use it as a single CD installer and a live CD.

Once installed, simpy urpmi what you want from their repositories. The next release of ONE will also come in KDE and Gnome versions. The big advantage over Ubuntu's releases (referring to Kubuntu here) is that Mandriva's KDE doesn't suck.

For one, I don't use KDE on Ubuntu, so it doesn't make any difference to me. I am aware of Mandriva One, but that still doesn't change my opinion of the quality of the distribution. It's still a little pokey compared to other distros I use. I'm sure Urpmi works well enough, but I highly doubt Mandriva has nearly 20,000 packages available to download in their repository. These may seem like small things to quibble about, but when it comes down to it, Ubuntu simply works better for me.

If you like Mandriva, then use it, it doesn't matter to me. Use what works best. Same goes for Tsuroerusu, he blows his load every time a new SUSE release comes out, so good for him. I hope every new Linux user can find a distro he or she loves as much as Tsuroerusu loves SUSE.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:38 am

Jza wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:
Jza wrote:Most people usually bash mandriva because is easy, yet they praise ubuntu because is easy and thats where I
I don't bash Mandriva because it's easy, I bash it because it is bloated, slow, and clunky from my past experiences with it. I tend to gravitate towards Ubuntu because it is extremely easy to use, and at the same time, it's very fast and lightweight, fitting onto a single CD, with a trimmed selection of packages. If I want more packages, I can simply "apt-get install" just about anything I want from the gigantic Apt repository.
So can you with mandriva, you can install the first cd and urpmi whatever package you need. You were able to do this about 3 years before apt-get was created.

Apt has been around alot longer than 3 years. Try 1998. Even Synaptic, the fantastic GUI frontend for Apt has been included with Debian since 2002.

schotty · Post by **schotty** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:22 am

I think he meant apt4rpm. That was released to the masses in what ... 2002 or so. But apt4rpm was a fork of the nonpublic conectiva tool that was essentially the same, but released shortly thereafter debian's apt suite. So tecnically, its this:

Apt
Connectiva's Aptrpm
Urpmi
apt4rpm

Would be cool to have a nice table of the progress of each pm suite's features and all. Curious on the evo of yum. I know its from yellowdog linux, but not knowledgeable beyond that.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:47 am

Wally Balljacker wrote:Same goes for Tsuroerusu, he blows his load every time a new SUSE release comes out, so good for him. I hope every new Linux user can find a distro he or she loves as much as Tsuroerusu loves SUSE.

I'm generally a very tolerant person, and I respect that other people have an opinion that may be drastically different from my own, but there are just some things that annoy me.
Of course I can take jokes, for example when Dann and Pat was interviewing Michael Löffler at LWE, Pat referred to "Denmark", and that I found really funny, but lately some people (They know who they are) have gonna quite a few steps beyond that, and referred to me as a SUSE zealot, whore and lots of other things, and used terms such as "blow his load" to describe my liking of SUSE.
It's starting to get to the point where I am getting quite pissed off about this, because I only like SUSE because I think it's a great distro, I am in no way afraid of admitting that the distro I talk about all the time and recommend to people, has errors/bugs and things that aren't necessarily working that well. Just as an example, before Novell bought SUSE, YaST was a proprietary component, but luckily Novell was kind enough to release YaST under the GPL, also SUSE's performance has not always been the best, when I switched from 9.2 to 9.3 I noticed that 9.3 was quite sluggish, and finally the package manager in 10.1 has been a disaster, I can't defend that, this ZENworks framework has been so crappy until just recently, that it's almost a disgrace, but as I've stated before, every distro has made at least one release that's not exactly that well put together, for example Mandriva's 2005 version I had some problems with (I'm sure some earlier releases had issues as well), Fedora 1 and 2 was not exactly a gift from heaven either, Kubuntu up until Dapper has been of significantly lower quality (Put it in a kind way) than just standard Ubuntu (Which is why I see the Ubuntu project's KDE support as half-hearted, because Kubuntu is always of less quality than Ubuntu) etc. etc.
So I ask people to at least cut SUSE a little slack, SUSE's past releases may not always have had the best performance but their stability has never had a problem, their releases have always been rock solid, but with not so good performance in too many cases, which is something that is being worked on in the openSUSE.org project, see for yourselves: http://en.opensuse.org/Boot_time + http://en.opensuse.org/SLICK

The reason I like SUSE as much as I do, is very much because it's one of the only distros I can think of that has really good support of both GNOME and KDE, sure SUSE's default desktop in their enterprise products is GNOME, but that doesn't mean that they're dumping KDE, moving away from KDE, it's just not the default desktop, and after having tried SLED 10 out, I really don't have a problem with it, I, as a KDE user, still get a desktop that's very nicely polished and very well put together (Even in 10.1, if you just uninstall ZENworks alltogether, and stick with Smart, it's not bad). Look at that new menu SUSE's usability team has developed for KDE, Kickoff it's called, if SUSE were dumping KDE why would they invest time and resources, and thereby money, into it? A lot of SUSE's German engineers are KDE guys, if you look here: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_Team
You'll notice quite a nice list of names who actively work on SUSE's KDE desktop, I guess Nat and the Ximian guys do the GNOME portion of SUSE.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I AM IN NO A WAY A ZEALOT OF SUSE, and no I don't "blow my load" whenever a new version comes out, I just get excited about it (NOT in the sexual related way) like the Ubuntu users got excited when Dapper came out (Not referring to the zealots).
What is so wrong about that? I like SUSE because I think it's a really good distro, it's something that I as an advanced user can use, because things are not being dumbed down (YaST has a shitload of options if you want them for everything from specifying what modules should be contained within the initrd file, what should be loaded on boot etc. etc.), and that I also can recommend to new users because for them the distro is easy to use, and has some great features that helps them get started in Linux and free software.

I like other distros than SUSE, if I were a SUSE zealot I would probably dismiss Red Hat, as they are SUSE's main competitor, but I don't, I really dig Fedora Core 5, that is an awesome GNOME distro, and the KDE experience wouldn't be that bad if they would just trash that ugly ass BlueCurve theme along with the icons and make the admin tools usable when using the gtk-qt theme engine. Also as you probably noticed, I like Mandriva, they have done a great job on internationalization, which is why I gave Mandriva to my aunt in favor of SUSE as SUSE's danish translations is like a swiss chease and very very badly translated, in Denmark we use the english word "firewall", people know what firewall means, we do not use the directly translated danish word "brandmur", that makes absolutely no sense to people unless they just translate it to english real quick in their minds.

Also, I'm quite interested in Debian Etch, as it would be something relavant to me as a KDE user, as KDE 3.5.4 (I hope 3.5.5 comes out in time to get into Etch before the code freezes begin) in all it's glory is gonna be in it.

To people that I have talked to over IM about SUSE, maybe I've asked them about they don't use it or what they don't like about it, and the reason I did that was for a very simple reason, openSUSE.org is a community project, as a member of that community (I don't write code, as I am not a programmer, but I help test the distro, once it's out of alpha stage where we're talking issues at the kernel level rather than a desktop polish level, plus I've also contributed some articles to the wiki, corrected some and helped new users out) I can give the SUSE engineers input on what I think should be changed, so that's what I've been doing.

In case some people are still, even after my immense post above, gonna call me a SUSE zealot or something, please consider that I, in some way, use all of these distros in addition to SUSE: Mandriva, Fedora, FreeBSD, OpenBSD.
Plus I've handed out Ubuntu discs if it was more practical that handing people a set of SUSE discs, for example, as I've told some of you in here before, blank CD/DVD media are very expensive here in Denmark, and sometimes when I don't have a bunch that I bought from Germany, it's just more practical to hand people a pressed Ubuntu disc that I got for no money anyway. I've introduced several people to Linux that way, and it has been quite successful, I've gotten about three people to use it, and they really enjoy it.

So to people that recently has referred to me using one or more of the terms that I mentioned earlier, I'd like to ask you to stop doing that, one because it is simply not true, and second, because it's actually quite annoying.

And Dann, I noticed that you have done this several during the show, so I think it's fair that I threw a little "joke" out about you, you private sex slave of Patrick Volkerding!