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rignes
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Post by rignes » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:49 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:Hey Chess, I was looking into slacktrack, and checkinstall, for tracking programs compiled from source. Do you use either one of these? I've just been compiling from source, and installing the old fashion way. Would using one of these tools be a better idea?
Checkinstall is an awesome utility. I used to have my Slackware system riddled with all kinds of crap that I didn't have any way of uninstalling until I found checkinstall.

I love my slackware but it's a sad fact that if you run it you must compile things from source more often than other distributions and checkinstall is the perfect way to be able to pull out manually installed things. It helps you to keep your system nice and clean.

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Ruhar
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Post by Ruhar » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:02 pm

Wally, where did you get the 'Slackware User' icon. That is pretty sweet!!

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Wally Balljacker
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Post by Wally Balljacker » Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:11 pm

Ruhar wrote:Wally, where did you get the 'Slackware User' icon. That is pretty sweet!!
I don't remember, I found it floating around on the web somewhere.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/ ... 4466/1.gif

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snarkout
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Post by snarkout » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:57 am

I just don't get slackware. People constantly use the word "simplicity" to describe it - what is so simple? Is this a euphemism for "no package management?" Or "no packages?" And what about the inits is any better or simpler than sysv? Seriously, I'm stumped. I tried several versions of slack and even offshoots like vector. I guess slack just wasn't for me in the end, but seriously, what do people mean by "simplicity?"
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.
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rignes
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Post by rignes » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:11 am

Simplicity in Slackware doesn't refer to it being simple for the user in my opinion but rather that the system itself is simply designed. A system that is simple is more stable than one that is complex and adding all the doodads to make it simple for the user adds complexity to the system, thus reducing it's stability. That, I think, is what the simplicity is about.

Now, as far as no packages or package management goes I beg to differ on there being none of those. Slackware has pkgtools which is it's package management system. The packages are essentially specially layed out tarballs that sometimes have scripts and the like that get run by the package tools. The tools of interest are installpkg, removepkg, and upgradepkg who's purpose is easy to see from the name. So, to install a package it's as easy as "installpkg nameofsomepackage.tgz" and to remove a package it's as easy as "removepkg nameofsomepackage".

If you aren't sure what is installed on your system or need to find out the name of a currently installed package to use with removepkg you can check the files in /var/log/packages/. Each installed package has a text file in there that describes what it is and which files were installed with that package. These files are actually used by the pkgtools for package management. Also, if you have a file and you want to know which package it is contained in you can just grep all of the contents of /var/log/packages/ for the filename and see which package it was installed from.

It is an unfortunate reality that Slackware doesn't have as huge of a repository of packages as, say Debian. This gap is partially filled by linuxpackages.net but in Slack you are almost sure to need to compile things yourself. That's where checkinstall comes in. Checkinstall is in the /extras directory on one of the Slack CD's. Checkiinstall will take what you compiled from source and create a slack package that you can install and easilly remove with the pkgtools which is nice for trying out software and not littering your system with files you don't need when you remove a package. Not every source has "make uninstall" setup in the makefile.

While the pkgtools are the base package system you can use some other tools as front ends for it and automate updates and installs from the official slackware packages. There's slackpkg in /extra, swaret, and slapt-get. These are all ways of checking to see what has been updated and get those packages via ftp, rsync, or http. I personally like swaret but slackpkg isn't bad. I haven't used slapt-get much though I'm pretty sure Dann has. I prefer swaret because it adds dependency checking and will prompt you to install any dependencies it finds lacking. There is even a nice GUI front end for swaret called Kswaret.

Some talk about the lack of dependency checking in slackware as a disadvantage, and it can be at times, but I don't mind grabbing the dependencies myself or using swaret to help find them. I'd rather deal with that then deal with dependency hell from other package management systems. But, as anything else Linux, this is just a personal preference. Oh, what if you have an rpm you want to install on slackware but no tgz available? rpm2tgz will convert it for you. Just thought I'd add that.

So, like I said, simplicity in the design is really the strength of slackware. No offence, but to say Slackware has no packages or package managemetn is just plain wrong. There is quite a bit to Slackware that get's missed at first blush.

I love slackware and havn't found another distro I like except for perhaps Arch. I often hear of misconceptions with slackware especially related to your simplicity question and package management and I hope this cleared things up a bit. That being said though, use the distro you want. That's the great thing about Open Source, the choice is yours and I won't fault you for not liking slackware or any other distro for that matter. I know I have my list of distroz I can't stand.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded post. ;)

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snarkout
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Post by snarkout » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:36 pm

I didn't say I couldn't stand slack, but I did say I thought it wasn't simple. I stand by that statement - I certainly don't think it's more simple than arch at least. And honeslty, I don't find it simpler than debian either. And I do understand that "simple" doesn't mean "easy" but I would expect it to mean simple to maintain, and simple to understand. Like I said, I don't see the inits being at all simple in slackware - at least not any simpler than sysv. I don't mind sysv at all, actually, but I found the slackware sysinits to be strikingly similar, though slightly different. Some have referred to them as "bsd-like." I guess I don't see that. In any event - I think slack is a fine distro, but it isn't my distro of choice, and I still don't understand the "simplicity" thing. Arch is more my style, I guess (for all the bitching I've done about breakage in the past).
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.
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Post by Linc » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:07 pm

Snarkout wrote:I didn't say I couldn't stand slack, but I did say I thought it wasn't simple. I stand by that statement - I certainly don't think it's more simple than arch at least. And honeslty, I don't find it simpler than debian either. And I do understand that "simple" doesn't mean "easy" but I would expect it to mean simple to maintain, and simple to understand. Like I said, I don't see the inits being at all simple in slackware - at least not any simpler than sysv. I don't mind sysv at all, actually, but I found the slackware sysinits to be strikingly similar, though slightly different. Some have referred to them as "bsd-like." I guess I don't see that. In any event - I think slack is a fine distro, but it isn't my distro of choice, and I still don't understand the "simplicity" thing. Arch is more my style, I guess (for all the bitching I've done about breakage in the past).
I have to say that not only do I believe Slackware to be simple, but I also see it as being true to Linux and elegant to boot. As far as being simple, it's much more simple to get going and get productive than either Arch or Debian. Both of those have long file downloads before they are productive. Debian has SysV style init scripting which I detest (reminds me of SCO). And, although Slackware has BSD-Style init scripting, it's not *BSD* init scripting - Arch is closer to that actually. However, it's still quite easy to navigate and configure. The other thing you get with Slackware is absolute rock solid stability and the security and piece of mind that the distribution has been around and will continue to do so without any flighty changes, dropped support, or well intended but harmful updates.
All that being said, I do run Arch and Debian too and really dig them all.
-Linc Fessenden

In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right...

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Post by Judland » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:19 pm

Linc wrote:I have to say that not only do I believe Slackware to be simple, but I also see it as being true to Linux and elegant to boot. As far as being simple, it's much more simple to get going and get productive than either Arch or Debian. Both of those have long file downloads before they are productive.
My only issue with installing Slackware is that I was never sure which package sets included what software or how much storage space my final selections came to.

It's not a problem when you have a 10(+)GB hard drive to install to, but when your resources are limited, it sure would have been nice to have more information as to what I actually had selected for install and how much space it would take up after install.

Getting an "out of space" error half way through the install wasn't fun at all.

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Post by rignes » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:41 pm

Yeah, it can be difficult to know what bits to install and what not to install. You can choose an expert installation and choose what specific packages you want. It's been a long while since I've installed Slackware other than a full install so I don't remember exactly the method anymore.

I just get fired up when people say there isn't a package manager for Slackware because their clearly is. It's very simple when compaired to other package management system but very effective none the less.

FYI, if you go to slackware.com and check out the packages link you can search for specifc files in packages or entire package names if you want to find out which package to install.

BTW, I've seen another thread here where people were getting all up in arms about this distro or that distro. I don't want to degrade to that level. So I'll go on the record as saying ANY Linux distro is better than running Windows. In my mind there is no such thing as a bad linux distribution, just different flavors for people with different tastes.

I just think Slackware tastes better than the others I've tried. :lol:

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Post by Judland » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:52 pm

Forgive my comment... it wasn't supposed to be an argument about what distro. is better. I was just sharing my feeling about where Slackware could have made it easier for me when it came installing it.

When I ran Slackware I thought it was a pretty good distro. It was easy enough for me to use and I can appreciate what Slackware is trying to be.

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Post by rignes » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:16 pm

Yeah, it's kind of amazing how passonate people get about things. I'm as guilty of it as the next guy I'm sure. ;)

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Ruhar
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Post by Ruhar » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:58 pm

I think Slack AND Arch are a great one-two punch. Arch gives you the bleeding (sometimes bloody) edge packages to play with to your hearts content, while Slack provides speed and rock solid stability that just keeps on tickin'.

I currently use Arch as well as Slackware and I really like them both a lot. I think they are a great team and share a lot of the same design principles. It just comes down to "horses for courses.."

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Post by Linc » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:37 pm

Judland wrote:
Linc wrote:I have to say that not only do I believe Slackware to be simple, but I also see it as being true to Linux and elegant to boot. As far as being simple, it's much more simple to get going and get productive than either Arch or Debian. Both of those have long file downloads before they are productive.
My only issue with installing Slackware is that I was never sure which package sets included what software or how much storage space my final selections came to.

It's not a problem when you have a 10(+)GB hard drive to install to, but when your resources are limited, it sure would have been nice to have more information as to what I actually had selected for install and how much space it would take up after install.

Getting an "out of space" error half way through the install wasn't fun at all.
Actually I have heard that a lot and it might suprise you to know that I have *never* done anything but a full installation on Slackware. Also, that full installation has never taken much more than 3gb, and it's relatively hard to find a drive that small these days ;-)
-Linc Fessenden

In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right...

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Post by Chess » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:03 pm

Ruhar wrote:I think Slack AND Arch are a great one-two punch. Arch gives you the bleeding (sometimes bloody) edge packages to play with to your hearts content, while Slack provides speed and rock solid stability that just keeps on tickin'.

I currently use Arch as well as Slackware and I really like them both a lot. I think they are a great team and share a lot of the same design principles. It just comes down to "horses for courses.."
I agree. I have two workstations, one with Slackware and one with Arch. Absolutely love them both and don't anticipate switching away from either one for a long time, if ever.
Chess Griffin

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Wally Balljacker
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Post by Wally Balljacker » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:25 pm

My only gripe with Slackware is that Patrick doesn't have an official AMD64, or IA64 port. We're all going 64-bit in the next few years, and I'd hate for Slackware to fade into irrelevance because it only runs on IA-32.

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