Patrick Norton on Apple

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:54 pm

Everybody on the Linux Bus!

hellonorman · Post by **hellonorman** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:39 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:
hellonorman wrote:The truth is if linux just worked in the same manner that OSX just works the landscape would be much different.
I am told that if you use Linspire, this is the case.

The community in general has negative things to say about Linspire. You expect Leo to recommend it?

hellonorman wrote:Look I use linux and I have high hopes for it. But the reality is that it's always behind in terms of usability for a noob.
And why is that? Look at what KDE is doing with KDE 4, when you disconnect your network, all the KDE apps is automatically gonna know that you're not connected to the web and then KMail won't try to check for new email, aKregator won't fetch new stories via RSS etc. etc.
Plus Linux may lag a little bit today, but for basic computer users I don't see that lag, and if it's there, please point to it, I have set my mom up with Mandriva 2006 and she's perfect happy.

I say its behind and you give an example of where it's behind. Is your mom the type to call Leo at KFI? People who call Leo on that show are noobs who would like to try and set things up or fix things themselves. The truth is that linux is behind in terms of usability for that type of noob.

hellonorman wrote:The reasons it's behind might be unfair and not the communities fault but that doesn't matter to a noob.
OK, do me a favor, install Mandriva 2007 when it comes out, and tell me what's missing from the point of a new user? Mandriva 2007 will have legal DVD and MP3 playback, and lots of other stuff, tell me what's missing and I'll see to that what can be fixed will get on the openSUSE wishlists for 10.3.

I'll try it.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:47 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote: Whenever someone asks Leo about Linux on his KFI radio (n00b-)show, he immeaditly starts talking about it being difficult to install and paritioning has to be done manually, and software is impossible for anyone to install and every damn piece of FUD he can pull out of his ass, and only gets into the positive stuff as "bonus" or some extra like "oh I almost forgot to mention X,Y and Z". And when people suggests they buy Linux, which can simplify their migration by a long shot at times (Buy SLED for 50 bucks and you get full support from Novell, yeah I know it's enterprise support, but you're still a customer, damn it!) he always mocks and say something like "Naah just download it for free" he just always forgets to add "even though you may not know how".
I don't see how anyone who's like this could ever be supportive of Linux.

At least Leo is critical of Linux and it's shortcomings. He tells it like it is for the most part, and lets people know that they'll probably run into issues configuring their hardware and such. Believe whatever you want, but there are still ALOT of areas Linux is lacking in right now. For starters:

Wireless

Wireless on Linux SUCKS. Most GUI tools are junk, and configuring a Linux laptop and a WPA-encrypted network still requires you to get down and dirty on the commandline. NetworkManager is improving in this area, but it's still far from perfect. And that is if your wireless card is even supported natively under Linux. Don't even get me started on NdisWrapper.

Devices

For one, printing is still a pain in the ass on Linux. Go grab some random printer or scanner from Staples, or OfficeMax, and have fun futzing with CUPS for the next 5 hours. MP3 players are still hit and miss. Some work, some don't. Say whatever you want about how easy it is managing iPods with Amarok, or gtkpod, but it is still extremely kludgy. None of them compete with the braindead ease of use of iTunes.

Gaming

This is a tough spot since it isn't the Linux community's fault that most commercial games aren't available on Linux. Nevertheless, it is an area that needs improving. People want to be able to play the latest and greatest computer games, and until Linux can provide, they're going to stick with Windows.

Codecs

Unless you go and buy a copy of Linspire, and get all the essential multimedia codecs installed out of the box, most distros still can't compete in this area. You cannot expect the average user to go hunting around on the web for shady 3rd-party RPM repositories. Couple that with the fact that It's not even LEGAL to play DVDs under Linux in most countries, and Windows still has a HUGE advantage here.

Applications

Now there are a lot of great open source apps on Linux, but there are still tons of essential programs that people have come to expect on their computer. Linux still needs a true Photoshop alternative, or even a native port of Photoshop itself. GIMP can't compete, sorry. Video editing is still a sore spot. Diva is looking promising, but that is still alpha software. The other video editors out there are a nightmare to use, and don't even come close to having the level of ease and polish of something like Final Cut Pro.

--

Geez, no wonder Leo doesn't bring up Linux more often.

All that being said, I still love Linux. I couldn't live without it, but I'm a geek, and I can deal with those things.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:51 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote: At least Leo is critical of Linux and it's shortcomings. He tells it like it is for the most part, and lets people know that they'll probably run into issues configuring their hardware and such. Believe whatever you want, but there are still ALOT of areas Linux is lacking in right now.

Believe it or not, there's a lot of f*cked up things with Microsoft and Mac as well, yet they devote entire shows to talking about them. Don't give that fable about MS and Mac being more "developed" than Linux, Unix, Sun, or BSD. They aren't. They're just as broken and in ways that don't surface today or tomorrow... but out of the blue things all of a sudden don't work and you can't figure out why. But no one ever wants to talk about those short comings. Oh no. Microsoft and Mac are just so much more together. Yeah, right.

You go and try and do a fresh install of XP or OSX on a dozen different configured PCs without the help of the stack of driver disks you need for every combination of hardware components.

Noob friendly, my arse.

Last year I bought my folks a new PC. I installed Kanotix on it for them and got everything set up. They barely know how to send an e-mail, yet they've been happily using their PC, sending family pictures to everyone, surfing the Net and playing music. Yet, not one problem with viruses, crashes or anything to get my father on the phone calling me for help. Not the same when he had Microsoft. There were always problems with that crap.

If it weren't for us just calling each other up to see how the families are doing, I'd never hear from them again.

I keep asking them if there are any computer problems, but they don't have any.

I guess that's why "Call for Help" doesn't talk about Linux much as the problems are so few and far between that there wouldn't be enough content for a show anyway.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:42 pm

Reminds me of an incident at the office today, which I overheard, since one of the IT guys is in the cubicle next to me....

Someone brought their laptop in to the office for some help. It could not connect to the Net or work with local networking. Turns out that Norton was blocking certain functions. So, the IT guy tried to turn it off.

Guess what. He couldn't stop Norton from running and he couldn't un-install it.

It took a call to HP and an hour on the phone to figure out what was going on and to fix it. Not very "easy", if you ask me.

Can't even un-install a piece of frickin' software!

hellonorman · Post by **hellonorman** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:19 pm

Judland wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote: At least Leo is critical of Linux and it's shortcomings. He tells it like it is for the most part, and lets people know that they'll probably run into issues configuring their hardware and such. Believe whatever you want, but there are still ALOT of areas Linux is lacking in right now.
Believe it or not, there's a lot of f*cked up things with Microsoft and Mac as well, yet they devote entire shows to talking about them. Don't give that fable about MS and Mac being more "developed" than Linux, Unix, Sun, or BSD. They aren't. They're just as broken and in ways that don't surface today or tomorrow... but out of the blue things all of a sudden don't work and you can't figure out why. But no one ever wants to talk about those short comings. Oh no. Microsoft and Mac are just so much more together. Yeah, right.

You go and try and do a fresh install of XP or OSX on a dozen different configured PCs without the help of the stack of driver disks you need for every combination of hardware components.

Well you've stated the obvious that every operating system is fucked up in some ways. Unfortunately that doesn't address the usability issues with linux and why someone like Leo wouldn't recommend it at every turn. Uh I'll bet as soon as you install those drivers the hardware will work without much fuss.

snarkout · Post by **snarkout** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:57 am

Judland, I must have missed the turning point where you became a complete linux apologist. I expect the rabid fanboyism from Troels. Linux is fucked in some ways - Wally did an excellent job of nailing down the tip of the iceberg. There is no way in hell I'd ever recommend linux to a n00b, even if I installed it and gave it to them. It is simply much too difficult for them to manage. Yes, other OSes have issues, but most of them aren't at the level of "I can't get my printer to work."

Please don't give me a single example of where someone you know/work with has had this issue with windows/mac OSX - I agree it happens, but it's much, much more the exception than the rule. To get my pixima ip4000 running under windows or OS X is a trivial 2 minute procedure. To get it working with linux took several hours of research, and even more command line hackery.

I honestly think some folks need to take a step back from the Penguin Bong and look at the big picture. Most people do not want to spend *any* time fucking around with their machines to get them to work. Anyone any of us knows has a support team - 99.999% of the people in the world do not. I mentioned on another thread that my wife was considering a thinkpad over a macbook. I started looking at the amount of work involved with getting linux working on a z61, and was simply shocked at how much fucking around it was going to take to even get it to basic acceptable levels of functionality. Kernel hacery, module foloery, lots of config file work, etc.

Even then, several peripherals simply weren't going to work dependably. No, it isn't the fault of linux, but it is a reality - to run linux means investing a shitload of your own personal time - most people aren't interested in that sort of tradeoff. At least most people I know. I know one other person who uses linux, and I get at least 3 requests a day from him for help doing things with Kubuntu. And this person is a very computer savy windows expert, not some dickweed n00b with a heavy clue deficit.

In any event, I obviously disagree with a lot of the sentiment in this thread. Windows and OS X are both fantastic OSes for the right people, just like Linux is for other people. Making the preference of OS a religious battle doesn't do anyone any good.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:58 am

If I want to think that television tech shows are biased to the technology/software they present to the public, than I have the freedom to do so. If I think Linux is just as powerful and even a better OS than Mac, MS, BSD, or what ever... then I also have that freedom.

Again, if I had the money and resources to fund my own Linux advertising or produce my own Linux and open source technology television program, I would... and I would make no apologies for doing it.

Back to the subject that started this thread out.... people like Leo and Patrick talk about and suggest OSs like Mac and MS-Windows because that is what they know. Since most all television personalities are in the same boat, Linux is rarely ever discussed. And THAT is the sad/frustrating part for me.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:01 am

hellonorman wrote:Well you've stated the obvious that every operating system is fucked up in some ways. Unfortunately that doesn't address the usability issues with linux and why someone like Leo wouldn't recommend it at every turn. Uh I'll bet as soon as you install those drivers the hardware will work without much fuss.

You sit next to an IT guy, like I do, for a few weeks... you'll be surprised at how much fuss XP can create.

Hell, Leo's program "Call for Help" is ABOUT all of the fuss a MS-Windows and Mac box can create!

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:00 pm

Snarkout wrote:I expect the rabid fanboyism from Troels.

After I began meditating a little bit now and then, I've been much better at dealing with comments like this one.

In case you have not read a lot of my past postings and opinions, I have very clearly said that Linux for A LONG time has needed a really robust way for users to add 3rd party drivers, which is why I am very happy about the new way Novell does it, packagers just need a little more practice, and then it's totally great!

You keep banging on a point, that seemingly both Judland and I can debunk, that users can't use a system that you set up for them, aka you taking the OEM role.

You're using Arch as your everyday distro right? Well aren't you administering pretty much everything manually? Is that where you get your picture of Linux being worse that Windows in terms of users being able to use it? If that is the case, I say you need to throw Arch to the moon and try some of the more userfriendly distros and experience a whole different world.
For example, when people ask me about printers in Linux, I say go buy an HP printer and it'll just work, when they ask me about wireless I point them to a specific wireless card (D-Link DWL-G520 for desktops, and D-Link DWL-G550 for laptops) if they don't already have a supported one (Intel Centrino cards, Ralink etc. etc.).

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:07 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:For example, when people ask me about printers in Linux, I say go buy an HP printer and it'll just work, when they ask me about wireless I point them to a specific wireless card (D-Link DWL-G520 for desktops, and D-Link DWL-G550 for laptops) if they don't already have a supported one (Intel Centrino cards, Ralink etc. etc.).

I think that's the problem. You need to do research every time you wanna buy a device for Linux. Not everyone has someone like you who can inform them on which devices work under Linux, and which ones don't. People don't want to waste their time looking up printer model numbers on Google to find out if they'll work or not. If you're running Windows, you buy the device, slap in the driver disc that comes with the package, and you're good to go.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:52 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:I think that's the problem. You need to do research every time you wanna buy a device for Linux. Not everyone has someone like you who can inform them on which devices work under Linux, and which ones don't. People don't want to waste their time looking up printer model numbers on Google to find out if they'll work or not.

Is it any better looking around anti-virus research sites looking for a specific removal tool because a virus disabled your antivirus, or looking in your system for rootkits installed by spyware etc. etc.
Sure you could just wipe the disc, but take one of my uncles as an example, he never got a Windows disc/restore disc with his computer, and HP refuses to give him one.

Wally Balljacker wrote:If you're running Windows, you buy the device, slap in the driver disc that comes with the package, and you're good to go.

In a lot of cases yes, but I have experienced A LOT of crappy and buggy WiFi drivers, management tools, vendor provided WiFi managers conflicting with Windows' own etc. etc.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:01 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:I think that's the problem. You need to do research every time you wanna buy a device for Linux. Not everyone has someone like you who can inform them on which devices work under Linux, and which ones don't. People don't want to waste their time looking up printer model numbers on Google to find out if they'll work or not.
Is it any better looking around anti-virus research sites looking for a specific removal tool because a virus disabled your antivirus, or looking in your system for rootkits installed by spyware etc. etc.
Sure you could just wipe the disc, but take one of my uncles as an example, he never got a Windows disc/restore disc with his computer, and HP refuses to give him one.

Windows Live OneCare - http://www.windowsonecare.com/

That solves the virus/spyware problem.

Tsuroerusu wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:If you're running Windows, you buy the device, slap in the driver disc that comes with the package, and you're good to go.
In a lot of cases yes, but I have experienced A LOT of crappy and buggy WiFi drivers, management tools, vendor provided WiFi managers conflicting with Windows' own etc. etc.

So then you call up tech support and get help. That's easier than trolling LinuxQuestions.org for answers on how to get a scanner or wireless card working in most cases.

Remember, I'm on your side here. I just think you need to step back from the Penguin Bong once in awhile like Snarkout suggested.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:16 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:Windows Live OneCare - http://www.windowsonecare.com/

That solves the virus/spyware problem.

Two words: OH PLEASE!!!
As long as users run as root it can just be turned off!

I'll let you in on a little secret, a few years ago I actually cracked into a bunch of systems because it was fun, and I learned quite a bit about security from it, and let me tell you something, it's trivial to disable all Windows', so called, defenses.
Just so you know, I never erased anything, except my tracks, read any private stuff etc. the worst thing I did was to disable people's anti-virus to be able to clear the WIndows logs.

Wally Balljacker wrote:So then you call up tech support and get help. That's easier than trolling LinuxQuestions.org for answers on how to get a scanner working in most cases.

I've tried tech support, and too often it's just as useless as lumbering around LinuxQuestions, from a new user's point of view.

And this is a reason to buy SLED 10 or Linspire or commercial support from Canonical, to get support.

Wally Balljacker wrote:Remember, I'm on your side here. I just think you need to step back from the Penguin Bong once in awhile like Snarkout suggested.

I believe in what I see working, and if I fully set up a machine with Linux and all the required codecs and stuff, it's a perfect system for people like my mom, it's not a perfect for a gamer who're not willing to buy an Xbox 360/Nintendo Wii or Sony PlayStation 3 and dump PC gaming.

I NEVER claimed that Linux is better for PC gamers, or for people who needs Photoshop and stuff, but for people like my mom, it's a really good choice, because of security, stability, reliability, cost, etc. etc.

My general opinion is this: If a person can install Windows, he or she can install SUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu/Kubuntu (If the installer does not act weird, or crash in the case of Kubuntu).

Now notice what I said there "If a person can install Windows", I'm not saying that my mom could, although I do believe she, specifically, could if I got her started and left her with a big-ass manual (That you can get "in the box" from SUSE, Mandriva and generally boxed Linux distros).

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:23 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:My general opinion is this: If a person can install Windows, he or she can install SUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu/Kubuntu (If the installer does not act weird, or crash in the case of Kubuntu).

And my general opinion is that if one is intelligent enough to install and configure a Linux system, one can also install and maintain a Windows system with little effort. It's not rocket science.