Patrick Norton on Apple

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:28 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:My general opinion is this: If a person can install Windows, he or she can install SUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu/Kubuntu (If the installer does not act weird, or crash in the case of Kubuntu).
And my general opinion is that if one is intelligent enough to install and configure a Linux system, one can also install and maintain a Windows system with little effort. It's not rocket science.

Dude, you should go check this out: http://www.microsoft.com/careers/
Could potentially earn you quite a nice salary!

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:46 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:
Wally Balljacker wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:My general opinion is this: If a person can install Windows, he or she can install SUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu/Kubuntu (If the installer does not act weird, or crash in the case of Kubuntu).
And my general opinion is that if one is intelligent enough to install and configure a Linux system, one can also install and maintain a Windows system with little effort. It's not rocket science.
Dude, you should go check this out: http://www.microsoft.com/careers/
Could potentially earn you quite a nice salary!

Hmm, yeah, no thanks.

I guess you haven't noticed, but I'm not exactly a supporter of Microsoft, or Windows. I look at things from a rational point of view from an average end user. You've even said it yourself that Linux isn't ideal for everyone (i.e. gamers, professionals who use Photoshop, or Final Cut Pro, Adobe Audition, etcetera) Trust me, rabid OS fanboyism and bashing won't get you anywhere. All it will do is piss off potential converts, and turn off even more people.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:00 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:I look at things from a rational point of view from an average end user.

Well, so do I, and for people who just use a computer for:

Web browsing
Sending and receiving email
Chat over IM
Organizing their photos
Listening to music
Watching videos
Watching DVD movies
Word processing
Spreadsheets
Presentations

Linux is a really really good choice, this list is a lot larger than it was just a year ago, and yes, this is not a system you're legally gonna get "out of the box", unless you wanna run Linspire.

*) Screw the DMCA!!
Mr. Bush, come invade Europe if you wanna catch my ass! HAHA!!

Wally Balljacker wrote:You've even said it yourself that Linux isn't ideal for everyone (i.e. gamers, professionals who use Photoshop, or Final Cut Pro, Adobe Audition, etcetera)

Look, there's a big difference between saying that "Linux isn't ideal for everyone", my saying, and "Linux isn't ideal for anyone" like you and Snarkout apparantly are saying.

(To Snarkout: Since you directly accused me of fanboyism, I think it's fair I take a little jab back at ya).

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:18 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:Look, there's a big difference between saying that "Linux isn't ideal for everyone", my saying, and "Linux isn't ideal for anyone" like you and Snarkout apparantly are saying.

What? Linux is ideal for LOTS of people. People that have friends and family who can assist them with hardware installation, and configuring things. There's no way I'd give my mother a Linux box if I wasn't around to fix it when it broke. Atleast she would have some kind of vendor support if she was running Windows, and Live OneCare.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:25 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:There's no way I'd give my mother a Linux box if I wasn't around to fix it when it broke.

I guess you need to spend more time setting up her box, and doing your own QA on it, instead of spending 1 hour on it, because why would it brake?

Wally Balljacker wrote:Atleast she would have some kind of vendor support if she was running Windows, and Live OneCare.

Well, Microsoft's support is as useless as anything can be, I have never heard of them even once being helpful, plus the whole idea behind OneCare is just ridiculous, Microsoft is charging customers money for software that "may" help protect them from Microsoft's own crappy software.

Try giving Linux to your mom and let her use it for a while, that's what I did, Firefox just worked, and never broke.

hellonorman · Post by **hellonorman** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:26 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote: Look, there's a big difference between saying that "Linux isn't ideal for everyone", my saying, and "Linux isn't ideal for anyone" like you and Snarkout apparantly are saying.

Are you kidding me? Are you frickin kidding me?

This whole thing started because two little fanboys were crying and FUDding about why Leo doesn't tell all the noobs on his radio show to use linux.

Many reasons were given as to why he doesn't. None of those reasons was "Linux isn't ideal for anyone".

People that call Leo's show aren't people who have a linux guru to set up a box and maintain it for them. For that type of noob it really makes NO frickin difference what OS is used because someone else is maintaining it.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:35 pm

hellonorman wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote: Look, there's a big difference between saying that "Linux isn't ideal for everyone", my saying, and "Linux isn't ideal for anyone" like you and Snarkout apparantly are saying.
Are you kidding me? Are you frickin kidding me?

I was referring to Wally's tone, not what he was directly saying, although that was pretty close.

hellonorman wrote:This whole thing started because two little fanboys were crying and FUDding about why Leo doesn't tell all the noobs on his radio show to use linux.

Many reasons were given as to why he doesn't. None of those reasons was "Linux isn't ideal for anyone".

OK, now I'm starting to get really upset: SHUT THE !! F U C K !! UP ABOUT ME BEING A FANBOY, OK?

I never said that Leo should just tell ANYONE to use Linux, in case you actually read my postings, you're gonna notice that I only harashly critizied Leo's knowledge of Linux, because he has on TOO many ocations given false and dated information on Linux that has only been FUD! His general knowledge of Linux is always very dated, for example it was only after Marcel Gagné showed him Ubuntu that he actually bothered to try it, after it having been on the top spot of Distrowatch for over a year.

hellonorman wrote:People that call Leo's show aren't people who have a linux guru to set up a box and maintain it for them. For that type of noob it really makes NO frickin difference what OS is used because someone else is maintaining it.

Windows is as difficult to keep secure as it is getting a Winmodem to work on Linux, because the damn thing is all proprietary software-based.

I have never said that people who can't do anything but use their computer for basic web browsing, should be attempting installing Linux, that's just never gonna work out, because there's some concepts they don't understand.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:39 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:I guess you need to spend more time setting up her box, and doing your own QA on it, instead of spending 1 hour on it, because why would it brake?

Yeah, that Ubuntu Xserver fiasco certainly puts my mind at ease...

Tsuroerusu wrote:Try giving Linux to your mom and let her use it for a while, that's what I did, Firefox just worked, and never broke.

Exactly, YOU set it up for her. Try having her configure her RPM repositories herself, or setting up a digital camera without any assistance.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:46 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:Trust me, rabid OS fanboyism and bashing won't get you anywhere. All it will do is piss off potential converts, and turn off even more people.

Because I can give you legitimate examples as to how Linux can fit an "average persons" needs and I'm actively trying to push Linux in the user market... you consider this a bad thing? Yet having a celebrity personality tell someone, who's asking about Linux, that it's nice but probably too complicated for them to comprehend is good for the community in some way?

A year ago, Linux and open source solutions was not even an idea in the minds of my co-workers. Now, we have an office LUG with a dozen members, there's about a half dozen of us in the office that use Linux at home now (most of which are people who never had much interest in computers but now appear to enjoy their new found knowledge) and Linux is a topic discussed at the water cooler quite often. I like to think that's because of me and my "fanboyism" as you call it.

Hell, even one of our Principals (owner of company shares) is in our LUG now and has been inquiring with corporate IT about possible open source solutions in the company. That's pretty darn good for a simple ol' "fanboy" like me.

At least I'm making a difference and I'm proud of that. Yes, people have to learn a few new things in the process... but I can't see how that is a disadvantage.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:53 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:I guess you need to spend more time setting up her box, and doing your own QA on it, instead of spending 1 hour on it, because why would it brake?
Yeah, that Ubuntu Xserver fiasco certainly puts my mind at ease...

Well, I better not comment on that, because I don't wanna start a big big flamewar!

Wally Balljacker wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote:Try giving Linux to your mom and let her use it for a while, that's what I did, Firefox just worked, and never broke.
Exactly, YOU set it up for her.

Sure I did, I was the "OEM", if Dell would do the same, there'd be no problem at all!

Wally Balljacker wrote:Try having her configure her RPM repositories herself,

Again, if I guided her through it over the phone, it's something she could do. If I were to give her a Linux box and move a 1000 miles away, I'd set her up with a solid version of SUSE Linux, in this case it'd be 10.0, and if I didn't have time to set up the multimedia stuff, I'd just tell her that I would guide her through it over Skype, which I would set up for her.
With YaST, you open up the main control center, go into installation sources, add a specific repository which I would instruct my mom completely through, let it download the repo info, and go into Software Management and bam, you just search for a bunch of programs and it'll be installed.

Future versions of SUSE promise something new called Patterns, which sounds extremely cool, but I'll mention that as soon as it gets used for cool things.

Wally Balljacker wrote:or setting up a digital camera without any assistance.

You seriously need to try SUSE 10.1 again, you just plug the damn camera in and BAM, up pops a dialog asking the user what he or she wanna do. No set up needed, digiKam is there.

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:55 pm

hellonorman wrote:People that call Leo's show aren't people who have a linux guru to set up a box and maintain it for them. For that type of noob it really makes NO frickin difference what OS is used because someone else is maintaining it.

But people do ask Leo about Linux on his shows. The point was, at least what I thought it was, that Leo (or most any other "tech program person" on T.V.) really doesn't seem to know enough about the subject to give "educated" advice or help. But that's just my personal opinion on the situation.

I've heard Leo offer advice on the subject and it always seems to end with the idea that Linux is really great but probably too complicated for the call-in-person to comprehend. So, he/she's better off with using XP or MacOS.

Now, that's Leo's opinion and he's free to share that opinion. However, it would be really nice if people who actually knew a thing about Linux got an equal share of air-time. But we all know that ain't going to happen due to plain old marketing tactics. And, for me, that is the frustrating part about watching and listening to these "tech shows".... that's about what it's boiling down to.

So, go ahead and take as many "fanboy" pot-shots at me as you like. I can take it. I'm known as "Mr. Penguin" at the office. People know what they're getting into when they ask me about the latest IE vulnerability. In fact, getting me going on a good MS flame is amusing for them (I enjoy it too)

Heck, at least I stand for something I believe in.

Wally Balljacker · Post by **Wally Balljacker** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:06 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote:You seriously need to try SUSE 10.1 again, you just plug the damn camera in and BAM, up pops a dialog asking the user what he or she wanna do. No set up needed, digiKam is there.

Look, whatever. Digital cameras, scanners, printers, MP3 Players, you name it, aren't as painless to set up as they are on Windows, or OS X. Believe whatever you want. I'm done with this thread.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:14 pm

Wally Balljacker wrote:[Look, whatever.

Fair enough.

Wally Balljacker wrote:Digital cameras, scanners, printers, MP3 Players, you name it, aren't as painless to set up as they are on Windows, or OS X.

Any digital camera and any MP3 player that mounts just as a standard USB mass storage device will have ZERO problems on Linux, until Microsoft enforces their VFAT patents that is.

Proprietary stuff like the iPod is do-able, Banshee does this quite well, I've just tested it myself (Yes I do have an iPod mini lumbering around, I'm pretty ashamed of it, but hey, it will soon be running Rockbox!).

Also the Creative Zen uses a proprietary format, it's only one extra library that you need, which is included right on the installation medium of some certain distro with German origins.

Wally Balljacker wrote:Believe whatever you want. I'm done with this thread.

Hey man, that's what free speech is for!

Judland · Post by **Judland** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:21 pm

Tsuroerusu wrote: OK, now I'm starting to get really upset: SHUT THE !! F U C K !! UP ABOUT ME BEING A FANBOY, OK?

Try not to let it get to you. It's that "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation.

You're a "fanboy" if you like Linux and think that it is something that everyone can use. You're a "elitist" if you happen to tell someone that Linux is not right for them. Sometimes you've just got to face the "Kobayashi Maru" scenario.

Tsuroerusu · Post by **Tsuroerusu** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:48 pm

Judland wrote:
Tsuroerusu wrote: OK, now I'm starting to get really upset: SHUT THE !! F U C K !! UP ABOUT ME BEING A FANBOY, OK?
Try not to let it get to you. It's that "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation.

Yeah I know, I need to meditate more I guess, because it seems to work a long part of the way.

Judland wrote:You're a "fanboy" if you like Linux and think that it is something that everyone can use. You're a "elitist" if you happen to tell someone that Linux is not right for them. Sometimes you've just got to face the "Kobayashi Maru" scenario.

Hmmm, yeah well, I have this huge negative association with the word "fanboy" aka people who drink the koolaid of something, be it Apple/Ubuntu/Sony/Microsoft and just starts, mindlessly, raving up about it all the time.